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2NL JJ flopped set on wet board facing turn shove raise

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2NL JJ flopped set on wet board facing turn shove raise - Sun Apr 06, 2014, 07:56 AM
(#1)
bhoylegend's Avatar
Since: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,261
This hand is probably more about my use of equilab than the hand itself but what the hell....

Pre-flop is standard, I think flop is standard, soaking wet board so I bet big, same thinking on the turn with a view to committing the rest of bricked rivers.

Snag is, villain shoves turn, now given what I had left behind to shove on river I think I have to call off, I can never get away against an unknown can I?

For him to take this action, I gave him the following range, QQ-JJ,99,AQs-AJs,A9s,KTs,AQo-AJo,A9o,KTo. Does that range seem reasonable? Anything else I should be giving him? Anything I shouldn't have given him?

Against that range, I am well ahead and make the call, I just want to check my ranging more than anything.

 
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Sun Apr 06, 2014, 08:21 AM
(#2)
TrustySam's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 8,291
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Hey bhoy

Have been trying to work on including combo draws in my ranging, which has been a blind spot for me - maybe a hand like that might have looked strong to the villain? Like pair, plus straight draw, plus flush draw? I remember it taking me a while to learn pot odds on the turn when I was at 2nl


Bet I'm *still* gonna miss a bunch, but ... well this'll be a first attempt so ... hopefully practice'll make perfect over time ...
















Maybe even ...


??
 
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Sun Apr 06, 2014, 08:32 AM
(#3)
bhoylegend's Avatar
Since: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,261
Yes, they all sound possible Sam, one hand I forgot to add in that I should never have forgotten is T8s. I think there are lots of suited hands + pair that he can do this with too but I didn't stick them in the equity calculator
 
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Sun Apr 06, 2014, 08:40 AM
(#4)
ArtySmokesPS's Avatar
Since: Oct 2011
Posts: 7,359
Your ranging looks good to me, Brendan. Obviously players at 2NL show up with all kinds of random junk that they should have folded pre, so T8 could be out there too, along with one combo of J9hh (2 pairs drawing dead). You block some of the diamond draws, but I wouldn't rule out AKdd as that's sometimes a flat in position pre-flop.

Overall though, you're crushing, so I wouldn't worry too much about running into the nuts. You're way ahead of all the draws on the turn.


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Sun Apr 06, 2014, 08:41 AM
(#5)
TrustySam's Avatar
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Oh ya, T8s! Am always missing hands like those - have stacked off missing that nugget of a hand many a time

Guess it's gonna take time to get used to ranging villains with those wider ranges - there's just so many hands to consider
 
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Sun Apr 06, 2014, 08:42 AM
(#6)
ArtySmokesPS's Avatar
Since: Oct 2011
Posts: 7,359
Quote:
Originally Posted by bhoylegend View Post
QQ-JJ,99,AQs-AJs,A9s,KTs,AQo-AJo,A9o,KTo. Does that range seem reasonable? Anything else I should be giving him? Anything I shouldn't have given him?
Well Equilab would have done it for you, but it's impossible for him to have JJ or AdJd.


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Sun Apr 06, 2014, 08:50 AM
(#7)
TrustySam's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 8,291
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bhoylegend View Post
T8s
omg, speak of the 'devil' ... hot off the presses

Click to show hidden text
 
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Sun Apr 06, 2014, 09:03 AM
(#8)
bhoylegend's Avatar
Since: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,261
Quote:
Originally Posted by ArtySmokesPS View Post
Well Equilab would have done it for you, but it's impossible for him to have JJ or AdJd.
In my defense, I've had about 3 hours sleep since yesterday morning as next door decided to have a party last night on the one weekend I decided to be sensible, so giving him a possible set of J's when I held it is excusable on that level.

I just gave the guy all AJs and AJo, not AJd in particular. I was cognisant that he couldnt have the Jd as I held that card.
 
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Sun Apr 06, 2014, 09:14 AM
(#9)
geoVARTA's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 1,306
Hey bhoylegend,
I’ll try to take this street by street.
Preflop: I don’t like the 3bet size. We are OOP and I want to charge a premium price to make for our positional disadvantage. Also if we include 3bet bluffs in our range, we don’t want to price them in and give them a correct call. So I’d go for 3x + 1bb/2bb or 0.25 – 0.26. If we don’t think villain will call with worse or 4bet light then sometimes we can even call with JJ to keep the portion of their range that we beat that would otherwise fold. Vs an unknown on 2nl I am 3betting for value which means I plan to gii if they 4bet.

Flop: This is a very wet flop and smacks their 3bet calling range. AQ, AJs, ATs, KQ, KJs, QJs, KTs, QTs, JTs, T9s, TT, 99, 88. So I agree with betting big, but I think our bet is not big enough : ) You can actually pot bet this flop and we expect the same frequency of calls.
(I expect QQ+ to be 4betting us)
Hand that call the flop:
• TP: AQ, KQ, QTs
• Pair + Draw: TT, KJs, JTs, T9s
• Ace highs: ATs
Hands that should raise the flop: (I say should because we don’t know if this villain will know that it’s not a good idea to slow play this flop)
• 2pair+: QJs, 99, KTs
Turn: The turn is pretty much a blank and should not change our plan (which is to bet 3 streets for value, unless a bad card comes); So a bet should be in order ( look at our stack size!) Any bet here will commit us so I think over-shoving is the same as 0.80. Go back to the flop and see how our stack size changes OTT had we bet pot it would be a nice turn shove for a PSB. I’m not sure working a range here really matters as we only need to be good 16.75% of the time. If they only jam on us with QQ and KTs then we have 14% equity, so you see how adding just 1 combo of a hand other than QQ or KTs will make it +EV to call.
 
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Sun Apr 06, 2014, 10:09 AM
(#10)
TrustySam's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 8,291
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TrustySam View Post
Like pair, plus straight draw, plus flush draw?

Bet I'm *still* gonna miss a bunch, but ... well this'll be a first attempt so ... hopefully practice'll make perfect over time ...
omg ... just realized none of the hands I listed were actually pair, plus straight draw, plus flush draw - d'oh!


Here's maybe a bunch more? I like Geo's range for most people Guess these would be potential hands for just some people?

Hmmm ... let's see ....



... is that it??


EDIT: oh ... maybe too?

Or ... less likely (maybe? ), like , ?

Last edited by TrustySam; Sun Apr 06, 2014 at 10:14 AM..
 
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Mon Apr 07, 2014, 02:45 PM
(#11)
ArtySmokesPS's Avatar
Since: Oct 2011
Posts: 7,359
Quote:
Originally Posted by geoVARTA View Post
their 3bet calling range. AQ, AJs, ATs, KQ, KJs, QJs, KTs, QTs, JTs, T9s, TT, 99, 88.
I think that range is fairly standard for a typical nit/tag in position, but based on the size of the 3-bet, positional advantage and my Jedi skills, I'm flatting the three with about half my button range. I'm calling pre with JJ-22, AQ-2s, AT+, K5s+, KJo+, Q9s+, QJo+, J8s+, T8s+, 97s+, 86s+, 75s+, 64s+, 54s, which is 21% of all hands. Folding to the 3-bet more than 60% of the time - which would be the case if villain's continuance range is as tight as you make it - is very exploitable. (i.e. just 3-bet him with virtually ATC for free money.)


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Mon Apr 07, 2014, 03:03 PM
(#12)
bhoylegend's Avatar
Since: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,261
Forgot to come back in the thread and say what he actually had.

Turns out that this villain does this with the Q5o, so he defends his button slightly more loosely than you Arty.

There's no reads on him other than this was the first hand he had played when I was involved. Not sure what he thought I had but it was a fun hand. JJ was the nuts for me yesterday.
 
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Wed Apr 09, 2014, 05:01 PM
(#13)
TrustySam's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 8,291
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Looks like my ranging was *still* incomplete lol


Meant to come back too to add that after putting some of those combo draws through equilab, was surprised to see that some of them weren't in bad shape (eg 9s Ts), especially if you had an overpair like AA, or versus a range of like AA-JJ.

Not sure why that surprised me, but it makes me wonder if maybe I've accidentally auto-pilot folded some big drawing hands on the turn, not realizing/noticing how much equity my hand had?


This hand was really interesting/fun and good for ranging - thanks for posting it bhoy
 

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