Home / Community / Forum / Poker Education / Poker Education & Beginners Questions /

Bet sizing

Old
Default
Bet sizing - Mon Apr 07, 2014, 06:54 AM
(#1)
baud2death's Avatar
Since: Nov 2012
Posts: 1,249
BronzeStar
I am looking to improve my game and one area I am fuzzy on is bet sizing.

I know that the typical rule of thumb in a tournament is preflop bets 3 x first 1/3 of game, 2.5 x 2/3 of game and 2 x 3/3 of game.

However this seems to contradict the SNG course article which says it should be x4 no matter what stage of the tournament you are in.

I have been trying out a few different tactics.

1) Bet size of stack
>> at 50BB+, 4 x BB
>> at 20-50BB, 3 x BB
>> <20BB, 2 x BB

2) Bet size of effective stack (shortest possible involved in the hand)
[as above, just with effective stack not my stack]

This means that I am not committing myself too much of my stack when making strong bets preflop, I am pricing out anyone looking to play weak pairs or low suited connectors and weak Aces and generally helping myself to restrict my opponents hand range as well as forcing control over the pot to either
a) get them to ditch their weak hand early on
b) know if I am beat early since with the cost to continue, a bluff is less likely there

I am also helped by people folding giving me the blinds for an easy chipup without needing to battle the board.


The question is, is this strategy wrong?
Your thoughts are appreciated and welcomed
 
Old
Default
Mon Apr 07, 2014, 07:16 AM
(#2)
mytton's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 181
Hi,
I think you are on the right track. Though I think the SNG course may be a little outdated now, as I rarely see 4x raises these days. Having said that though there could still be a case for it in the very early stages of a freeroll or tiny stakes mtt.

Personally I will start at 3x just for the first few levels, then reduce to 2.5 once stacks get below about say 40bb. Further reducing to 2 x is trickier, and I think depends to some extent on table dynamic. If you see others doing this and getting folds then go ahead. If everyone else is still using 2.5 or more then you may want to just trim sizing down without dropping all the way to 2 x. There still seems to be this odd phenomena where a minraise is seen as weak whereas a bet of a few chips more is not.

From what I have seen (not that I get there so very often), in the later stages of MTTs 2 x pretty much becomes the norm and anything more looks unusual.
 
Old
Default
Mon Apr 07, 2014, 09:22 AM
(#3)
CrazYJohnnie's Avatar
Since: Apr 2012
Posts: 641
I think 4x is big, i usually use 3x for first 2-3 levels, then i switch to 2.5x, but this also depends on the table, if everyone is playing rock tight go ahead and minraise a lot this leave you room for folding marginal hands or 4 betting top of your range.
For cash i raise 3x from all positions and 2.5x from CO and BTN at full ring, but at 6max i only raise 2.5x from the button.
Actually i think raise sizes are also villain dependant, say you know that some vill calls up to 5x raises, then we can always raise 5x with top of our range and value own him.
 
Old
Default
Mon Apr 07, 2014, 10:08 AM
(#4)
DrDonkin's Avatar
Since: Nov 2012
Posts: 874
I have my bet slider set at 2.3x 2.8x 3.3x and 3.8x. Early when blinds low i will 3x then as blinds go up (but before antes)i will 2.8x then when antes in play its 2.3x all the way to last man standing, i use the 3.3x and 3.8x to raise over 1 limper.
 
Old
Default
Mon Apr 07, 2014, 11:17 AM
(#5)
baud2death's Avatar
Since: Nov 2012
Posts: 1,249
BronzeStar
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrDonkin View Post
I have my bet slider set at 2.3x 2.8x 3.3x and 3.8x. Early when blinds low i will 3x then as blinds go up (but before antes)i will 2.8x then when antes in play its 2.3x all the way to last man standing, i use the 3.3x and 3.8x to raise over 1 limper.
I love the specificity of your suggestion
Doesn't this get confusing when you are raising over 2 limpers?

So you reckon
3 x < 25/50
2.8 x < antes
2.3 x => antes

with +1 bet per limper?
 
Old
Default
Mon Apr 07, 2014, 12:41 PM
(#6)
DrDonkin's Avatar
Since: Nov 2012
Posts: 874
Quote:
Originally Posted by baud2death View Post
I love the specificity of your suggestion
Doesn't this get confusing when you are raising over 2 limpers?

So you reckon
3 x < 25/50
2.8 x < antes
2.3 x => antes

with +1 bet per limper?
Its easy enough to add for extra limpers EG: blinds 50/100 so 2.8x + 1 per limper is 280+ 100/200/300

Or you can always cheat like i sometimes do when antes in play and you have 2 limpers and just do a 3.8x which is close enough imo to 2 x +1 per limper

So you reckon
3 x < 25/50
2.8 x < antes
2.3 x => antes

with +1 bet per limper

I really like betting with random numbers thrown in and the 2.3 and 2.8 does this for us, i also add them to my cbets as this can throw people off and also wastes some of the time bank so were not auto clicking buttons and makes it look like we are thinking.
 
Old
Default
Mon Apr 07, 2014, 12:45 PM
(#7)
JWK24's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 24,817
(Super-Moderator)
BronzeStar
I'm using 3x until the blinds get to 100/200. 2.5x from there until 1k/2k. At 1k/2k I lower to 2..
Obviously, I'm adding for any limpers.

John (JWK24)


Super-Moderator



6 Time Bracelet Winner


 
Old
Default
Mon Apr 07, 2014, 03:45 PM
(#8)
baud2death's Avatar
Since: Nov 2012
Posts: 1,249
BronzeStar
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrDonkin View Post
Its easy enough to add for extra limpers EG: blinds 50/100 so 2.8x + 1 per limper is 280+ 100/200/300

Or you can always cheat like i sometimes do when antes in play and you have 2 limpers and just do a 3.8x which is close enough imo to 2 x +1 per limper

So you reckon
3 x < 25/50
2.8 x < antes
2.3 x => antes

with +1 bet per limper

I really like betting with random numbers thrown in and the 2.3 and 2.8 does this for us, i also add them to my cbets as this can throw people off and also wastes some of the time bank so were not auto clicking buttons and makes it look like we are thinking.
Going to give this a try
I like 3.2 early (i like a bet stronger than 3 but realize that 4 is probably a bit too much), 2.8 at 50/100 and 2.3 at Antes
LOL - i tried to make it 2 decimals but then it screws the buttons up - because I like the idea of having odd bet sizing. It makes your hand very hard to read and I know I have asked "he is raising odd numbered chips, surely there is a reason for that" or "he is raising odd numbered chips, he wants me to think there is a reason but there probably isnt" --- and if I am thinking either (or worst both) of those things, I have a slightly harder time of putting that guy on a hand.

And if it forces someone to make a decision once in awhile based on a weird concept of my bet sizing then all the better

Just need to regiment myself to using it right.
Also, i updated my post-flop buttons to 1/2, 2/3, Pot, Max - here is my thinking :

vs 2+ opp on any board texture, any level = pot bet

Pre Antes :
vs 1 opp on dry board = 1/2 pot bet
vs 1 opp on wet board = pot bet

Post Antes :
vs 1 opp on dry board = 2/3 pot bet
vs 1 opp on wet board = pot bet

Does that sound smart?
 
Old
Default
Mon Apr 07, 2014, 04:09 PM
(#9)
JWK24's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 24,817
(Super-Moderator)
BronzeStar
Quote:
Originally Posted by baud2death View Post
vs 2+ opp on any board texture, any level = pot bet

Pre Antes :
vs 1 opp on dry board = 1/2 pot bet
vs 1 opp on wet board = pot bet

Post Antes :
vs 1 opp on dry board = 2/3 pot bet
vs 1 opp on wet board = pot bet

Does that sound smart?
IMO, NO. It makes too many bets too high which can cost us especially later in tourneys. Here is a BLOG that I did on the subject.

Overbetting these will end up costing us value to smarter opps. Later in tourneys, chip preservation is just as important as chip accumulation.

John (JWK24)


Super-Moderator



6 Time Bracelet Winner


 
Old
Default
Mon Apr 07, 2014, 04:39 PM
(#10)
DrDonkin's Avatar
Since: Nov 2012
Posts: 874
Quote:
Originally Posted by JWK24 View Post

Later in tourneys, chip preservation is just as important as chip accumulation.

John (JWK24)
This is a interesting subject for sure, and am i right that we preserve our chips/stack by stealing blinds while we wait for a spot to accumulate chips? .

Iv seen you mention this before but never any details or explanation of what it means.
 
Old
Default
Mon Apr 07, 2014, 04:58 PM
(#11)
JWK24's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 24,817
(Super-Moderator)
BronzeStar
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrDonkin View Post
This is a interesting subject for sure, and am i right that we preserve our chips/stack by stealing blinds while we wait for a spot to accumulate chips? .

Iv seen you mention this before but never any details or explanation of what it means.
Especially late in tourneys, there are two different types of EV. Chip EV and Tourney EV

as there gets to be less and less players left, the chips in my stack become worth more in relation to Tourney EV (how much cash I'll get from the tournament based on my current chip stack). Since each chip becomes worth more and more, it puts more of a premium on preserving the chips that I have.

I do agree with you that stealing blinds a given % of the time does allow for us to wait for spots to accumulate chips and is absolutely necessary especially if we go card dead. The key with it is that we need the opps to fold a given % of the time in order to breakeven as I need to have it average out to a net positive for me.... which will not always be the case. If say the blinds for my button are extremely loose, I'm better off folding more to them than to get called light and lose more chips to opps that won't fold.

Hope this helps

John (JWK24)


Super-Moderator



6 Time Bracelet Winner


 
Old
Default
Mon Apr 07, 2014, 05:36 PM
(#12)
baud2death's Avatar
Since: Nov 2012
Posts: 1,249
BronzeStar
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrDonkin View Post
This is a interesting subject for sure, and am i right that we preserve our chips/stack by stealing blinds while we wait for a spot to accumulate chips? .

Iv seen you mention this before but never any details or explanation of what it means.
I have read this blog before but awhile back, I like it
So regardless of level, it is 1/2, 2/3, 3/4 and full for the progression of betting

I take it that you would continue this method for each street that comes, assuming that no cards fall that could hurt us (a board pair, a straight/flush fill, an overcard)

I just deleted a 30 minute post I made on the maths behind pot betting vs 2/3 betting but considering that there are massive implied odds/probabilities involved and I am not spending hours going through different formulas just to double-back on myself.

I will however bow to seniority and experience on this one and give this a full fledged try.
I do think that there are positives to acting strong and attracting worse hands to pay you off sooner but this is of course weighted against the willigness for opponents to take that risk and how likely you are to get paid off effectivly.

One of the skills I find at the moment I am working hard on is finding a way to get an opponent to give me as much of their stack at showdown. I find that I showdown less than I should, more eager to get an opponent to fold to a pot sized bet than to price them into a showdown and maximize value.


In summary : I think your method still doesn't protect as well from draws as a pot sized bet might but I do think that it is more likely to produce a showdown and gain value there and in the long-run get more of our opponents chips than an early fold would.

The only key component that is vital to it working is the insight to bail when you are behind.
Since by reducing your bet sizing, you are inviting more people into a later street, this in turn increases the chances of being outdrawn more than pushing someone of their hand would. If the hero is able to know when he is beaten, he can fold the lesser hand. If however the hero has issues letting go of a hand that is dominated, he will end up making this method -EV in the longrun because on the additional occasions he gets drawn out on, he won't be able to release and spew any of the chips that this method got him.
 
Old
Default
Mon Apr 07, 2014, 05:54 PM
(#13)
JWK24's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 24,817
(Super-Moderator)
BronzeStar
Players that pot everything are very easy to exploit and beat. The way to do it is to not pay them off... don't call with anything marginal. Then when you do have a made hand, raise them. You will lose tons less chips due to not calling their bets as often and will gain a ton more chips when you do have a hand.

I see these players all the time and gladly welcome them to any of my tables.

John (JWK24)


Super-Moderator



6 Time Bracelet Winner


 
Old
Default
Tue Apr 08, 2014, 05:08 AM
(#14)
Qwerty2070's Avatar
Since: Oct 2013
Posts: 2
This was actually abit interesting. I have never thought of setting the multiplier for the buttons to other then the default .0 og .5
Thanks for the tip.
 

Getting PokerStars is easy: download and install the PokerStars game software, create your free player account, and validate your email address. Clicking on the download poker button will lead to the installation of compatible poker software on your PC of 51.7 MB, which will enable you to register and play poker on the PokerStars platform. To uninstall PokerStars use the Windows uninstaller: click Start > Control Panel and then select Add or Remove programs > Select PokerStars and click Uninstall or Remove.

Copyright (c) PokerSchoolOnline.com. All rights reserved, Rational Group, Douglas Bay Complex, King Edward Road, Onchan, Isle of Man, IM3 1DZ. You can email us on support@pokerschoolonline.com