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10NL Zoom 65s flopped flush facing action

10NL Zoom 65s flopped flush facing action - Tue Apr 08, 2014, 09:54 AM
bhoylegend's Avatar
Since: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,261
Another against an unknown.

Flop a 6 high flush. I make a decent sized raise, and get min-raised to which, much to my embarrassment, I do little more than click it back, thankfully he raises again.

At this point, would shoving be overkill?

Do I value own myself in this situation if I shove and I am behind? And get no value when I shove and am ahead and he just folds whatever he has as I give him a bad price?

I really do not want to see another diamond hit as I think I am ahead right now but given his action he has a higher flush draw or a set. So I don't want to see the board pair either.

My only concern with shoving flop is that one of the hands that can reasonably call me there is a higher flopped flush, its unlikely, but he seems to like his hand. 'Monsters under the bed' I think is the expression.

Tue Apr 08, 2014, 01:47 PM
dirt eh's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 1,274
As played, I think I'm shoving the turn regardless.

OTF: The click back war seems silly. Note that the more this gets clicked back the tighter our opponents range should become... I think that this villain can have a lot of hands in their range, both stronger and weaker. Once it goes to $1.70... if we just call we can reevaluate OTT and make a decision to either go with our hand or fold.

I'm not sure if we can give the villain all of these hands or not but I don't see why all of these hands plus more could make sense.

Board: 3:d:J:d:8:d:
       Equity     Win     Tie
SB     44.73%  44.73%   0.00% { 6d5d }
BB     55.27%  55.27%   0.00% { 88, 33, AdTd, Ad9d, Td9d, Ad8d, Ad7d, Ad6d, Ad5d, Ad4d, Ad3d, Ad2d, AdJh, AdJs, AdJc, Ad8h, Ad8s, Ad8c }
Tue Apr 08, 2014, 02:09 PM
bhoylegend's Avatar
Since: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,261
I totally accept that my initial click-back (It was slightly more but yeah.....) was silly. Its not something I usually do, so not a leak that I need to fix or anything, just an aberration.

I felt he could be doing this with any big diamond, obviously any flush too, and any set, and put in some spaz too. So, against that range, I felt I was good enough here.

It doesn't reveal anything to say that I did shove turn as it was now less than a PSB. He did call.
Tue Apr 08, 2014, 02:22 PM
PSO-xflixx's Avatar
Since: Jun 2011
Posts: 1,119
(Live Trainer)
If villain is unknown our flop play could sometimes backfire and we might get it in only against a lot better hands given that we have the lowest possible flush combo^^

My biggest worry is that he may fold bluffs or too many weaker hands to a flop 3bet. I'd just call, see a turn and his action there to decide how to continue - sometimes just calling sometimes reraising there.

Live Trainer

Tue Apr 08, 2014, 02:26 PM
ArtySmokesPS's Avatar
Since: Oct 2011
Posts: 7,353
Originally Posted by bhoylegend View Post
I felt he could be doing this with any big diamond, obviously any flush too, and any set, and put in some spaz too. So, against that range, I felt I was good enough here.
I pretty much always try and get it in on the flop here, as villains will even ship AJ/KJ trying to "protect" their hand from a flush draw. They will nearly always stack off with the TPTK+FD combo, which has less than 32% equity.
Against a range of sets, made flushes, and decent flush draws (with or without a pair), it's actually pretty close equity-wise. Against JJ,88,33,AdQd,AdJd,AdTd,Ad9d,Ad8d,Ad7d,Ad6d,Ad5d,A d4d,Ad3d,Ad2d,AdQh,AdQs,AdQc,AdJh,AdJs,AdJc,AdTh,A dTs,AdTc,KdJh,KdJs,KdJc you're basically flipping, with 53% equity, so it kind of comes down to how you like your variance.

You could sometimes try the slowplaying line of just calling the flop raise and seeing what happens on the turn. You'll get sucked out on quite often (against sets and big diamonds), but will have fairly easy decisions on later streets. This line misses some value when villain would have stacked off on the flop with worse, but also minimises your losses when villain binks the turn and you have an easy laydown to save half a buyin.

Bracelet Winner
Tue Apr 08, 2014, 02:42 PM
bhoylegend's Avatar
Since: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,261
Okay, thanks everyone.

Villain showed up with Ad4s, got it in on a Qc turn, and the river was a nice safe 2s so I held to win a nice pot. Just wasn't sure if I was meant to play for 100bb on the flop or not (It was certainly my intention to but he just called, probably figuring I had a worse flush draw, or a weak pair).

I think I would like to play it the way you suggest Felix, its probably best long-term, in game I just felt like I wanted to get money in when I thought I was ahead but of course that means playing a big pot with high variance when he is drawing to the nuts.

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