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Top 2 facing a river shove, 5nl zoom 6max.

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Top 2 facing a river shove, 5nl zoom 6max. - Fri Apr 11, 2014, 09:05 AM
(#1)
Paddy Gar's Avatar
Since: Apr 2010
Posts: 439
Villain is 1 tabling and I have only 4 hands on him so far.

On the flop when he check calls, I'm actually assigning a strong range here. I've seen recreational players slow play monsters in this situation a lot.

So on the turn I'm betting bigger, trying to extract more value from his overpairs. When he calls turn I'm pretty sure I have him crushed as I would expect the classic min raise from any sets, and I'm blocking some combos of 88/JJ.

This is why I felt like calling the river shove was the correct play in this situation. Rec player can shove overpairs in this spot, so he can be shoving a lot of combos of worse hands. Also there are very few combos I lose to considering how the hand was played.

Is this a standard call not being results orientated? Against a regular would you guys call the river? I think a regular would be leading on the flop with sets/ overpairs so the spot probably wouldn't occur, but I would still like to know your opinions.

 
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Fri Apr 11, 2014, 10:24 AM
(#2)
Guano23's Avatar
Since: Jun 2013
Posts: 13
If you tagging him as recreational I think the limp pre flop says small pair or suited connectors to me. That would put 22-99 and small suited connectors in his range. As played he could have been in love with a small pair then hit a set on turn or river but my guess would be and hand like 67d where he was trying to hit a straight and ran out in to a flush. I would bet all 3 streets and then fold to his shove. Recs don't normally shove with air like this so I would fold to his shove as he either has a set or the flush.

Last edited by Guano23; Fri Apr 11, 2014 at 10:31 AM.. Reason: typo
 
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Fri Apr 11, 2014, 10:43 AM
(#3)
Paddy Gar's Avatar
Since: Apr 2010
Posts: 439
Guano he min raised pre, he didn't limp. Would you not expect the villain the bet the flop w/67?

Also in terms of relative hand strength I have top two pair. Maybe villain is shoving worse two pair also?

Last edited by Paddy Gar; Fri Apr 11, 2014 at 10:53 AM..
 
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Fri Apr 11, 2014, 11:24 AM
(#4)
rule110's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 147
You say you only have four hands on him; not much info. How did he play those hands?

Well, given that you "only have four hands on him" I would fold J8ss preflop, even on the bttn. I can imagine scenarios where I would call or raise this same hand, but given the info provided I'm folding this.

My second favorite option here would be to 3b J8ss preflop, with next to no reads.

As played, vs his minraise pre, all baby sets are in his range, connected and semi connected diamonds, hands like Axdd and Kxdd as well. I would add some slowplayed overpairs too. With no reads and as played I may be tempted to call, and I think this tough decision is a result, maybe, of a too ambitious preflop call. So honestly, I would just fold here given his shove. Then, I would start taking notes on him so I would better know what to do when in a hand with him.

Last edited by rule110; Fri Apr 11, 2014 at 11:28 AM..
 
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Fri Apr 11, 2014, 11:25 AM
(#5)
Guano23's Avatar
Since: Jun 2013
Posts: 13
Sorry I thought it was 10NL lol. I will still put him on a low pair anything suited and maybe non suited broadway. I don't think he is showing up with a worse two pair J5 85 82 83 as he wouldn't min raise pre with those. On flop and turn I would say small pair or Jx. The shove on the river says he must have something especially after all the aggression you have showed. Its possible he is calling before with KQ k10 thinking you have nothing too and his high card is good. I will still fold to his shove it screams I have a hand to me, any 2d especially KQd could have been played this way by a rec. Pockets 3 may have got that far too if he is putting you on overs.
 
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Fri Apr 11, 2014, 11:28 AM
(#6)
Guano23's Avatar
Since: Jun 2013
Posts: 13
I would agree with rule on either fold or 3bet pre. It would make post flop a lot easier against an unknown
 
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Fri Apr 11, 2014, 11:32 AM
(#7)
dirt eh's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 1,274
Paddy,

I think that we need to fold the river. BD diamonds got there and some BD straights. As for the rest of the hand, your bet sizes are perfect imo.
 
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Fri Apr 11, 2014, 11:35 AM
(#8)
Paddy Gar's Avatar
Since: Apr 2010
Posts: 439
ty guys, yeah I'm definitely assigning too narrow of a range here. Looking back on my bet sizing on the flop, the villain should have a wider range on the turn, so backdoor diamonds are definitely a part of his range.

The check call on the flop makes some diamond combos hard to make sense of imo. Surely 67dd or 89dd bets flop. Maybe a5d/56dd something like that?

Rule I called because I want to play in position versus a recreational player, with a hand that has good potential post flop.Plus the raise sizing was so small, might fold pre to 3x. 3 betting is better for sure, again though for a min bet I'm ok calling.

Last edited by Paddy Gar; Fri Apr 11, 2014 at 11:43 AM..
 
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Fri Apr 11, 2014, 11:47 AM
(#9)
rule110's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 147
How do you know he is a recreational player? You only have four hands on him! He is playing 80+bb
 
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Fri Apr 11, 2014, 11:49 AM
(#10)
Paddy Gar's Avatar
Since: Apr 2010
Posts: 439
He's not fully stacked and playing one table, I'm going on assumptions here.
 
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Fri Apr 11, 2014, 11:51 AM
(#11)
Guano23's Avatar
Since: Jun 2013
Posts: 13
Paddy what was your plan pre flop with the J8 when you called? What did you put him on initially. I would be happy to 3bet steal and see a fold pre, or just dump the J8 even in position you are not going to be +ev in the long run
 
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Fri Apr 11, 2014, 12:02 PM
(#12)
Paddy Gar's Avatar
Since: Apr 2010
Posts: 439
Pre flop Guano I'm calling to see a flop with a decent suited gapped connector. I can flop strong draws with this hand, and if not maybe take him off his hand if he's showing weakness. If I do flop good draws im calling, and trying to extract max value if i make a strong hand.

I don't expect his range to be too wide opening from mp, still I expect to make money from this call long term. The times where I make flushes/ straights against presumed rec players in this spot, and they pay me off with tp/overpairs etc far outweigh the times i c/fold on the flop.
 
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Fri Apr 11, 2014, 12:23 PM
(#13)
Guano23's Avatar
Since: Jun 2013
Posts: 13
Surly min raise in MP gives him a very wide range? In these kinds of spots I just think by calling we will always get ourselves in to a lot of trouble more often than not with J8. Even if your hitting straight or flush draws OTF he could have some many better draws than you with a wide open range. I personally treat any 2 gap connectors as junk I just don't like them.
 
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Fri Apr 11, 2014, 12:29 PM
(#14)
Paddy Gar's Avatar
Since: Apr 2010
Posts: 439
Yeah he can have some junk in his range, I'm making the call respecting the fact that he's raising in ep and assuming there will be, at least some of the time, implied odds if we flop well. There will also be other times where he c/folds the flop too.
 
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Fri Apr 11, 2014, 01:11 PM
(#15)
geoVARTA's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 1,306
Hi Paddy Gar,

I'm not a big fan of the preflop call. But it's not too bad either IP as long as we don't have strong opponents in the blinds. With two pair I want to start thinking of getting three streets of value so I will start by betting. I don't want to bet too big, and I don't want to bet too small. Just standard 2/3 pot should be okay. Same goes for the turn, I want to target the weak portion of their range. When they x/c the flop, they can do this with a weak Jx, PP below TP, 8x, sometimes AQ/AK/AT, or slow playing sets on a seemingly dry board. I expect gutshots like QT, draws like 67, TPGK (AJ/KJ), overpairs QQ+ to be betting. The only way we are beat OTR is if they have floated flop with Adxd or slow played a set. We need to be good atleast 27.16% to justify a call OTR; problem is I can't see too many bluffs in their range but I hate to fold top-two against a recreational player who could be spewing with AJ, a slow played AA, or a QT.
 
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Fri Apr 11, 2014, 01:25 PM
(#16)
Paddy Gar's Avatar
Since: Apr 2010
Posts: 439
ty Geo, what leaned me toward the call was the blockers in my hands towards some set combos. I didn't see it as a bluff either and like I said in a previous post in terms of relative hand strength against a shove from a rec I am beating some hands he could slowplay like this.

On that dry board there are almost no bluffs that could be in his range I felt. Recs always put you in tough spots!!!!
 

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