Home / Community / Forum / Poker Education / Texas Hold'Em Cash Games /

5NL 6max zoom – A3s multiway pre facing 3b fold/call?

Old
Default
5NL 6max zoom – A3s multiway pre facing 3b fold/call? - Fri Apr 11, 2014, 02:25 PM
(#1)
braveslice's Avatar
Since: Feb 2013
Posts: 568
Question: Should I call? pair 15x, suited connector 20x, suited Ax?

BB not known, however his most likely range is KK+. The likelyhood that both BU and SB call is over 50%, them 4B under 5%

In some sense this should be really easy call. But let say that I flop a draw, that is going to be very costly draw. If I flop a A, I will give at least one street value more.

PokerStars Zoom No-Limit Hold'em, $0.05 BB (6 handed) - PokerStars Converter Tool from http://flopturnriver.com

Button ($6.11)
SB ($4.88)
BB ($7.75)
Hero (UTG) ($6)
MP ($5)
CO ($5)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with A, 3
Hero raises to $0.15, 2 folds, Button calls $0.15, SB calls $0.13, BB raises to $0.45

Last edited by braveslice; Fri Apr 11, 2014 at 02:43 PM..
 
Old
Default
Sat Apr 12, 2014, 02:46 AM
(#2)
Roland GTX's Avatar
Since: Jan 2012
Posts: 1,905
Putting the BB on a range of KK+ is too narrow. He could be squeezing with a all kinds of hands from pocket pairs to AJs, AQ+, KJ type hands as well as air.

I think there are many good reasons to fold in this spot. He is unnkown, you are not last to act preflop and will be oop postflop if the btn comes along. You will not flop a strong draw often enough and flopping an A or a 3 still leaves you with an unclear postflop situation.

If we do put the BB on KK or AA, he is crushing you preflop and we can't be confident he will pay you off if you flop well. The toughest case would be flopping an A. Do want want to risk playing for stacks on the assumtion that your tp weak kicker is good?

Note: Opening utg with Axs is pretty loose and creates many spots where you can be dominated or forced to fold as here. I typically stick to A10+ utg and fold weaker aces.

Roland GTX
 
Old
Default
Sat Apr 12, 2014, 02:32 PM
(#3)
braveslice's Avatar
Since: Feb 2013
Posts: 568
Thanks Roland.

Yeah, table was tight so I decided to open. You are hinting that you would call ATs here?

If so, I think you should call A3s too, as you got to same kind of decision problems with both of these hands. For example if flops is Ahi and you get action you are beat in both cases. If you flop 2 pairs and villain has 2p too he has better two and so on.

You answer is interesting because I came to same conclusion (folding) without a real answer why. Sorry to say, but I read your answer the same way, you can’t really say why.

Villain having strong range is many times used as a reason to call with speculatively hands. There is a kicker problem, but that stays true in tight tables even with AQ. Having multiway pot is many times said to be a reason to call speculative hands. And so on…

How did my babbling sound?
 
Old
Default
Sat Apr 12, 2014, 02:45 PM
(#4)
ArtySmokesPS's Avatar
Since: Oct 2011
Posts: 7,353
I'd fold since we're not closing the action, but for me A3s is a standard open UTG and I nearly always call 3-bets with it when in position in heads up spots. If you're not comfortable playing weak aces when you're likely to be OOP or dominated by callers/re-raisers, then folding pre is fine.


Bracelet Winner
 
Old
Default
Sat Apr 12, 2014, 02:57 PM
(#5)
mike2198's Avatar
Since: Jan 2013
Posts: 1,485
Quote:
Originally Posted by ArtySmokesPS View Post
I'd fold since we're not closing the action, but for me A3s is a standard open UTG and I nearly always call 3-bets with it when in position in heads up spots. If you're not comfortable playing weak aces when you're likely to be OOP or dominated by callers/re-raisers, then folding pre is fine.
Why do you call A2-A5s IP to a 3bet? Dont you need reads for that like villains 3bet% and how he plays postflop.
 
Old
Default
Sat Apr 12, 2014, 03:04 PM
(#6)
braveslice's Avatar
Since: Feb 2013
Posts: 568
Deleted

I read wrong arty's post.

Last edited by braveslice; Sat Apr 12, 2014 at 03:07 PM..
 
Old
Default
Sat Apr 12, 2014, 03:30 PM
(#7)
ArtySmokesPS's Avatar
Since: Oct 2011
Posts: 7,353
Quote:
Originally Posted by mike2198 View Post
Why do you call A2-A5s IP to a 3bet? Dont you need reads for that like villains 3bet% and how he plays postflop.
I do it readless, tbh. Having an ace blocker is really powerful for a start. I can easily get away vs double barrels on Axx, but a lot of the time, villains turn KK/QQ face up on Axx boards. When there's no ace on the board, I can float with backdoor draws and then take the pot away when it becomes obvious villain has AK.
Of course there's also the chance of occasionally flopping a draw to the nuts, and you can play for stacks with the NFD and an overcard.

Although this might sound completely crazy, I sometimes also call 3-bets with stuff like 54s and J9s, and it's proving to be profitable so far. (The variance is insane though when you're repeatedly playing bloated pots with weak hands). It's all part of this "range-balancing" approach I've learned from the likes of Matt Janda. As I've said before, there's no need to make loose calls against tight 3-bettors at 5NL, but if you fold everything but JJ+/AK when you get 3-bet at 10NL+, you are totally exploitable, as villains can 3-bet ATC and show an immediate profit.
In short, if you want to crush higher stakes, you've got to get comfortable playing 3-bet pots without premiums at some point, so you may as well learn to play weaker hands at peanut stakes first. Suited aces are among the easiest hands to play, as you know you're aiming to flop top pair or NFD, so I'd recommend calling 3-bets with Axs for starters.


Bracelet Winner
 
Old
Default
Sat Apr 12, 2014, 04:06 PM
(#8)
mike2198's Avatar
Since: Jan 2013
Posts: 1,485
Let us know how that goes Arty.
 
Old
Default
Sat Apr 12, 2014, 05:11 PM
(#9)
ArtySmokesPS's Avatar
Since: Oct 2011
Posts: 7,353
I'm on a new database, Mike, so my samplesize is tiny at the moment, but just for the 2000 hands I've played this week, my fold to 3-bet stat is 45%, and my EV winrate for "called 3-bet = true" (only 16 hands, including K8s, J9s and 87s) is a ridiculous 1014bb/100. I think something like 80bb/100 is more likely in the long run against bad players.
With some of the hands in my calling range and against certain opponents, I prefer 4-bet bluffing, as the amount of fold equity is surprisingly high against nitty types, as they seem to give credit for KK+ pretty often.

I'll keep running filters as I progress, with updates in my blog thread.


Bracelet Winner
 

Getting PokerStars is easy: download and install the PokerStars game software, create your free player account, and validate your email address. Clicking on the download poker button will lead to the installation of compatible poker software on your PC of 51.7 MB, which will enable you to register and play poker on the PokerStars platform. To uninstall PokerStars use the Windows uninstaller: click Start > Control Panel and then select Add or Remove programs > Select PokerStars and click Uninstall or Remove.

Copyright (c) PokerSchoolOnline.com. All rights reserved, Rational Group, Douglas Bay Complex, King Edward Road, Onchan, Isle of Man, IM3 1DZ. You can email us on support@pokerschoolonline.com