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5NL zoom 6max – AK lose it all syndrome

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5NL zoom 6max – AK lose it all syndrome - Sat Apr 12, 2014, 12:15 PM
(#1)
braveslice's Avatar
Since: Feb 2013
Posts: 568
I lose a stack every 500 hands with this play. This AK screw up can happpen multiway or heads up when the stacks are a bit shallower.

Is my fundamental mistake cbetting with air? But I should have huge fold equity, so if I don’t cbet, I should probably just call pre.

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Preflop: Hero is MP with K, A
1 fold, Hero raises to $0.15, CO raises to $0.50, 2 folds, BB calls $0.45, Hero raises to $2, 1 fold, BB calls $1.50

Flop: ($4.52) 10, Q, 8 (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $3.12 (All-In), BB calls $3.12

Last edited by braveslice; Sat Apr 12, 2014 at 12:19 PM..
 
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Sat Apr 12, 2014, 12:26 PM
(#2)
Paddy Gar's Avatar
Since: Apr 2010
Posts: 439
When you think of the range of hands the bb can cold call a 3 bet, then call a 4bet with....it absolutely smacks this board. JJ/1010/QQ/AQ suited, it's pretty gross but on a board like this I would c/fold.

You had the option to take a free turn card also ip and maybe take it to showdown or hit an A/K/J. There's a lot in the pot once the flop comes, but I think we can safe in the knowledge that we're not being bluffed if we check back and our opponent shoves the turn.

Also remember this is a 4bet pot so this isn't your standard cbet. Can we get called by a worse hand if we bet here? Can we fold out better?

Last edited by Paddy Gar; Sat Apr 12, 2014 at 12:29 PM..
 
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Sat Apr 12, 2014, 09:34 PM
(#3)
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,499
(Head Trainer)
Hi brave,

Your 4b sizing is pretty huge, and quite frankly I think we should be concerned with the BB's cold call of the 3b if we don't have a read that he's a loose fish. I would rate this hand to be pretty strong, at least it's a situation where he should be. Flatting is a fine option.

As played, BB has called some pretty serious action preflop, like Paddy said, how are you ranging him? I have to think you're not when you make a statement like I should have huge fold equity c-betting. Against what? QQ/TT/KK/AA are possible (AA/KK he could have if he's getting trappy pre, but these are less likely...QQ/TT are fully possible). AQ, not sure if it's in his preflop range or not, or KQs for that matter, but anyone who does call this much preflop action with them it is never to fold on a Q high flop. About all we have fold equity against imo is JJ and other AK hands, and sometimes players will talk themselves into us holding AK and call off with those anyway, once the pot is so big.


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Sun Apr 13, 2014, 03:08 AM
(#4)
braveslice's Avatar
Since: Feb 2013
Posts: 568
I meant in general I should have huge fold equity, not just in this hand. In this hand BB looked like a fish and I wanted to play stacks, but even against fish maybe a bad board. With some luck I might have some outs here though.

I will post the hands in separate forum topics.

So to this hand, against villain range {TT,JJ,QQ,AQ+} we have 32% equity (against sets 14%, against AQ 28%) – how can I not shove because the stack to pot ratio is so small. For villain shove we get pot odds: 28%, but surely he folds sometimes if we shove, because he is destined to have some bad cards too.

What I meant by a problem is that I get odds to shove in any flop because of the stack to pot ratio, and that feels bad sometimes.

This was addressed by saying 4bet size is large, maybe here lies one of the key reasons. Do you think shoving pre would be better?

Last edited by braveslice; Sun Apr 13, 2014 at 03:20 AM..
 
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Sun Apr 13, 2014, 03:26 AM
(#5)
CrazYJohnnie's Avatar
Since: Apr 2012
Posts: 641
My opinion is that with AK you do not want big pots preflop. Think about it in terms of equity-vs lower pairs we are flipping and vs any two 60/40, but you knew that.
As played 4bet is way too big nothing worse is ever continuing. Vs nit i would even fold to 3bet, but i would continue with sooted big slick, by flatting. AJ and AQ is instamuck vs tight villains.

Shoving is probably an option vs spewtards because every now and then i see villains stacking off with QJ or K9 but it is so rare i dont think it is profitable long term.

Last edited by CrazYJohnnie; Sun Apr 13, 2014 at 03:30 AM..
 
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Sun Apr 13, 2014, 04:23 AM
(#6)
braveslice's Avatar
Since: Feb 2013
Posts: 568
CrazY, On the contrary, imo, weird player cold calling 3bet is so often having mediocre hand and willing to play stacks with it. AK has real value against hands like that, for example we dominate KQ,KJ,AQ,AJ and these hands will call usually a big raise. Not sure either if they would call shove, as it's not my style, at least not at the moment.

Last edited by braveslice; Sun Apr 13, 2014 at 04:28 AM..
 
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Sun Apr 13, 2014, 11:35 AM
(#7)
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,499
(Head Trainer)
Quote:
Originally Posted by braveslice View Post
CrazY, On the contrary, imo, weird player cold calling 3bet is so often having mediocre hand and willing to play stacks with it. AK has real value against hands like that, for example we dominate KQ,KJ,AQ,AJ and these hands will call usually a big raise. Not sure either if they would call shove, as it's not my style, at least not at the moment.
Only if they're fish. I would expect his range to be pretty narrow here until I have reads to the contrary.

I don't think 4b shoving is good. I think we should 4b to a normal sizing, or not 4b. Readless I am usually flatting here.


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Mon Apr 14, 2014, 03:57 PM
(#8)
braveslice's Avatar
Since: Feb 2013
Posts: 568
Ok ty. I have been trying to keep it small.
 

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