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Set over set in the blinds

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Set over set in the blinds - Fri Apr 25, 2014, 05:13 AM
(#1)
Swagneto's Avatar
Since: Feb 2014
Posts: 34
How often should I be folding bottom set or middle set in zoom poker?

Like here is an obvious case that I'm behind but I hear time and time again that set over set happens "so little to worry about".



Everyone else going broke here? Or is the board so dry and the aggression so high that you're letting it go?
Assume a readless villian (but this particular one had laggy stats over a small hand sample <100 hands / mid 20s vp and pfr)
 
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Fri Apr 25, 2014, 05:33 AM
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baud2death's Avatar
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Set over set happens so infrequently

Yes, Zoom attracts a lot of "i fold until i get AA then shove" but plenty of people are set-mining, plenty of people want to give AQ a go, they arent always waiting for AK and there are still some rag hands that come in as well. A lot of people just treat it like a ring game and will not always go at it with the nuts, an overpair is strong hand to put your opponent on here like AA/KK or perhaps even KQ/AQ.

I am never not going at this pot, especially in a cash game.
On this flop you are only behind to the QQ/33, the turn only introduces TT and the river is 77.
Having a hand where you hand only reduces by -1 from the nuts each street is very strong and if you are behind to a cooler or someone gets lucky and catches, then thats your bad beat for the day but you are ahead A LOT more than you are behind in this spot, even with Zoom.
 
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Fri Apr 25, 2014, 05:51 AM
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Swagneto's Avatar
Since: Feb 2014
Posts: 34
See, here's the thing. I've played about 60-70k (not that high, but high enough to notice some trends) hands in 2nl zoom and I don't think I've ever had someone try to let me see a flop for cheap when they're carrying AA/KK, especially when they know that I'm more likely to peel wider because it's BvB.

KQ/AQ never play this aggro - they go for easier value.

The only hand I was hoping for was something like Q3 when I made the crying call on the river, and even that's hopeful. Surely there's some arguments for folding here, even if it's located in his stack size (600BBish)?

Thanks for the response!



Edit: just booted up some more games, less than 15 hands in and I just went all in with 222 against 999. Ridiculous... I need the advice of a 2nl veteran; perhaps it's worth folding out low PPs even in 6max games in todays state of the game. Too much set mining. Too much reverse implied odds with the bottom end.

Last edited by Swagneto; Fri Apr 25, 2014 at 06:02 AM..
 
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Fri Apr 25, 2014, 06:20 AM
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Fair enough

Could have been any Queen really as well, didn't have to be two pair
QJ is possible, maybe even a combo draws but even with it being Zoom im not fearing set vs set.

If i am thinking that I am up against set vs set each time then i am only playing TT/JJ for set mining on zoom, and thats just unfeasible
 
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Fri Apr 25, 2014, 06:38 AM
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bhoylegend's Avatar
Since: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,261
We cant fold here IMO once we hit the set.

2NL villains will often go broke with AQ/KQ here too.
 
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Fri Apr 25, 2014, 06:53 AM
(#6)
ArtySmokesPS's Avatar
Since: Oct 2011
Posts: 7,359
It's blind vs blind and you flopped a set on a board with a flush draw. Get it in on the flop, while you're losing to 3 combos of 33 (QQ seems very unlikely given pre-flop action) and crushing tons.


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Fri Apr 25, 2014, 09:14 AM
(#7)
Swagneto's Avatar
Since: Feb 2014
Posts: 34
Quote:
Originally Posted by baud2death View Post
Fair enough

Could have been any Queen really as well, didn't have to be two pair
QJ is possible, maybe even a combo draws but even with it being Zoom im not fearing set vs set.

If i am thinking that I am up against set vs set each time then i am only playing TT/JJ for set mining on zoom, and thats just unfeasible
Do you play 2nl often? These days it's mostly all TAGs. There's very little spew and if it is - it's from short stacks (i.e. the people who aren't topping up). Set over set is extremely frequent when looking at pots that end up with deep stacked shoves. Stacks rarely go in unless it's a cooler. My analysis is that I want to be on the right side of coolers (much like I learnt the hard way that nobody jams 100BB without AA or KK anymore).

Zoom makes it more probable that it's set vs. set. This is just one man's opinion of course, but I definitely think I'll have to reconsider playing anything below 77
 
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Fri Apr 25, 2014, 09:38 AM
(#8)
bhoylegend's Avatar
Since: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,261
Quote:
Originally Posted by Swagneto View Post
Do you play 2nl often?.... There's very little spew and if it is....
I don't know if I can agree with this statement. There is still a tonne of spew (Including some of my own) at 2NL these days.

I've played 64k+ at 2NL this year.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Swagneto View Post
(much like I learnt the hard way that nobody jams 100BB without AA or KK anymore).
This isn't true either. Plenty of people go in with random crap and or legit hands. Just looked through my hand histories and there are lots of broadway hands, and random unpaired hands as well as JJ+ and AK.

Last edited by bhoylegend; Fri Apr 25, 2014 at 09:43 AM..
 
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Fri Apr 25, 2014, 09:43 AM
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baud2death's Avatar
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If that is the case... Not sure I would want to touch zoom any more, that is shocking lol

Guess that's what happens when you turn poker into a slot machine, only way you can get paid off is to hit the absolute nuts and hope you got lucky enough to a) be in a hand with someone who caught a piece of it b) not able to see you have it

In suppose if it's zoom that takes a lot of folding but you would get it eventually

With zoom, anytime I have own big pots it's usually preflop with AA vs KK or AK or QQ... Or with a flopped nut flush, set or flopped straight

If you believe your opponents really are this tight then I would never set mine with anything less than raising pairs because you will always fear a lower set

I can see people shipping it in with less really even with Zoom and if I am wrong then it's not poker it's bingo


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Fri Apr 25, 2014, 10:20 AM
(#10)
Swagneto's Avatar
Since: Feb 2014
Posts: 34
Hmm, perhaps I should rephrase.

After browsing through my hand histories I rarely see people 4bet (not all in) with anything other than KK and AA.

As for the spew statement, there's a lot less than there used to be. All I'm saying is that 100BB stacks rarely spew, and there's a tonne of players buying in without that. But you probably have played more hands than me all the same, so I won't argue!
 
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Fri Apr 25, 2014, 10:49 AM
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Since: Nov 2012
Posts: 1,249
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I have tilt issues with Zoom/Cash right now so don't take my words as gospel lol
 
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Fri Apr 25, 2014, 11:01 AM
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JWK24's Avatar
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Posts: 24,836
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ArtySmokesPS View Post
It's blind vs blind and you flopped a set on a board with a flush draw. Get it in on the flop, while you're losing to 3 combos of 33 (QQ seems very unlikely given pre-flop action) and crushing tons.
I totally agree!

John (JWK24)


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Fri Apr 25, 2014, 11:06 AM
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TheLangolier's Avatar
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I would have gone broke here either on the flop or turn tbh. Not only do 2NL randoms tend to overvalue strong 1 pair hands, but the Q is not the suit of the flush draw, so he can have a number of top pair+FD combos in his range as well. I do think there are clear situations that arise where we can get away from bottom set, but this isn't one of them imo.

As for 2nl zoom being a TAG fest, idk, it sure wasn't a couple months ago. I observed it for like 20 min just to see what the play was like. Obv only the biggest pots make it to the observation table, but there were a lot of them where someone got all in with top pair/no kicker or a wild bluff, they weren't all coolers.


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Fri Apr 25, 2014, 11:17 AM
(#14)
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Ok, not buying the tagfest/no spew assessment.

I just opened up 2nl zoom 6m observation, these were literally the first 3 hands I saw.

Hand 1: player stacks off TPTK
Hand 2: player defends the BB with 94o
Hand 3: player loses his mind with AJ


PokerStars Hand #115284726265: Hold'em No Limit ($0.01/$0.02 USD) - 2014/04/25 10:09:02 CT [2014/04/25 11:09:02 ET]
Table 'Halley' 6-max Seat #1 is the button
Seat 1: akinoshima ($2.01 in chips)
Seat 2: norte191 ($4.13 in chips)
Seat 3: Rusel90 ($3.43 in chips)
Seat 4: samruso ($2.92 in chips)
Seat 5: Andreazz73 ($1.91 in chips)
Seat 6: KYNGFYPANDA ($2 in chips)
norte191: posts small blind $0.01
Rusel90: posts big blind $0.02
*** HOLE CARDS ***
samruso: raises $0.04 to $0.06
Andreazz73: calls $0.06
KYNGFYPANDA: folds
akinoshima: calls $0.06
norte191: folds
Rusel90: folds
*** FLOP *** [4h 6d Qs]
samruso: bets $0.14
Andreazz73: calls $0.14
akinoshima: folds
*** TURN *** [4h 6d Qs] [2s]
samruso: bets $0.32
Andreazz73: raises $0.42 to $0.74
samruso: raises $1.98 to $2.72 and is all-in
Andreazz73: calls $0.97 and is all-in
Uncalled bet ($1.01) returned to samruso
*** RIVER *** [4h 6d Qs 2s] [9c]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
samruso: shows [Ac Qd] (a pair of Queens)
Andreazz73: shows [4c 4s] (three of a kind, Fours)
Andreazz73 collected $3.77 from pot



PokerStars Hand #115284745499: Hold'em No Limit ($0.01/$0.02 USD) - 2014/04/25 10:09:31 CT [2014/04/25 11:09:31 ET]
Table 'Halley' 6-max Seat #1 is the button
Seat 1: Gyro$ Pit4 ($2.45 in chips)
Seat 2: marjoryaaa ($2.42 in chips)
Seat 3: korrida66 ($2 in chips)
Seat 4: boksiukas ($4.19 in chips)
Seat 5: drk55 ($2.36 in chips)
Seat 6: Maxi_Kiselev ($2.15 in chips)
marjoryaaa: posts small blind $0.01
korrida66: posts big blind $0.02
*** HOLE CARDS ***
boksiukas: folds
drk55: folds
Maxi_Kiselev: folds
Gyro$ Pit4: folds
marjoryaaa: raises $0.04 to $0.06
korrida66: calls $0.04
*** FLOP *** [8h 4d Td]
marjoryaaa: bets $0.12
korrida66: calls $0.12
*** TURN *** [8h 4d Td] [4s]
marjoryaaa: bets $0.35
korrida66: calls $0.35
*** RIVER *** [8h 4d Td 4s] [9c]
marjoryaaa: bets $1.02
korrida66: raises $0.45 to $1.47 and is all-in
marjoryaaa: calls $0.45
*** SHOW DOWN ***
korrida66: shows [9s 4h] (a full house, Fours full of Nines)
marjoryaaa: mucks hand
korrida66 collected $3.86 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $4 | Rake $0.14
Board [8h 4d Td 4s 9c]
Seat 1: Gyro$ Pit4 (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 2: marjoryaaa (small blind) mucked
Seat 3: korrida66 (big blind) showed [9s 4h] and won ($3.86) with a full house, Fours full of Nines
Seat 4: boksiukas folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 5: drk55 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 6: Maxi_Kiselev folded before Flop (didn't bet)


PokerStars Hand #115284767993: Hold'em No Limit ($0.01/$0.02 USD) - 2014/04/25 10:10:05 CT [2014/04/25 11:10:05 ET]
Table 'Halley' 6-max Seat #1 is the button
Seat 1: Maxi_Kiselev ($2.69 in chips)
Seat 2: v7362986 ($1.92 in chips)
Seat 3: Gyro$ Pit4 ($2.04 in chips)
Seat 4: zoobr94 ($5.22 in chips)
Seat 5: Santaschacki ($1.60 in chips)
Seat 6: therookie275 ($1.96 in chips)
v7362986: posts small blind $0.01
Gyro$ Pit4: posts big blind $0.02
*** HOLE CARDS ***
zoobr94: folds
Santaschacki: raises $0.06 to $0.08
therookie275: calls $0.08
Maxi_Kiselev: folds
v7362986: folds
Gyro$ Pit4: calls $0.06
*** FLOP *** [7c Js 9c]
Gyro$ Pit4: checks
Santaschacki: bets $0.08
therookie275: raises $0.08 to $0.16
Gyro$ Pit4: calls $0.16
Santaschacki: calls $0.08
*** TURN *** [7c Js 9c] [6c]
Gyro$ Pit4: checks
Santaschacki: checks
therookie275: checks
*** RIVER *** [7c Js 9c 6c] [Ks]
Gyro$ Pit4: checks
Santaschacki: bets $0.12
therookie275: raises $0.64 to $0.76
Gyro$ Pit4: folds
Santaschacki: raises $0.60 to $1.36 and is all-in
therookie275: calls $0.60
*** SHOW DOWN ***
Santaschacki: shows [Qc Ac] (a flush, Ace high)
therookie275: shows [Jd As] (a pair of Jacks)
Santaschacki collected $3.33 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $3.45 | Rake $0.12
Board [7c Js 9c 6c Ks]
Seat 1: Maxi_Kiselev (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 2: v7362986 (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 3: Gyro$ Pit4 (big blind) folded on the River
Seat 4: zoobr94 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 5: Santaschacki showed [Qc Ac] and won ($3.33) with a flush, Ace high
Seat 6: therookie275 showed [Jd As] and lost with a pair of Jacks


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Last edited by TheLangolier; Fri Apr 25, 2014 at 11:19 AM..
 
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Fri Apr 25, 2014, 11:37 AM
(#15)
Swagneto's Avatar
Since: Feb 2014
Posts: 34
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheLangolier View Post
Ok, not buying the tagfest/no spew assessment.

I just opened up 2nl zoom 6m observation, these were literally the first 3 hands I saw.

Hand 1: player stacks off TPTK
Hand 2: player defends the BB with 94o
Hand 3: player loses his mind with AJ


PokerStars Hand #115284726265: Hold'em No Limit ($0.01/$0.02 USD) - 2014/04/25 10:09:02 CT [2014/04/25 11:09:02 ET]
Table 'Halley' 6-max Seat #1 is the button
Seat 1: akinoshima ($2.01 in chips)
Seat 2: norte191 ($4.13 in chips)
Seat 3: Rusel90 ($3.43 in chips)
Seat 4: samruso ($2.92 in chips)
Seat 5: Andreazz73 ($1.91 in chips)
Seat 6: KYNGFYPANDA ($2 in chips)
norte191: posts small blind $0.01
Rusel90: posts big blind $0.02
*** HOLE CARDS ***
samruso: raises $0.04 to $0.06
Andreazz73: calls $0.06
KYNGFYPANDA: folds
akinoshima: calls $0.06
norte191: folds
Rusel90: folds
*** FLOP *** [4h 6d Qs]
samruso: bets $0.14
Andreazz73: calls $0.14
akinoshima: folds
*** TURN *** [4h 6d Qs] [2s]
samruso: bets $0.32
Andreazz73: raises $0.42 to $0.74
samruso: raises $1.98 to $2.72 and is all-in
Andreazz73: calls $0.97 and is all-in
Uncalled bet ($1.01) returned to samruso
*** RIVER *** [4h 6d Qs 2s] [9c]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
samruso: shows [Ac Qd] (a pair of Queens)
Andreazz73: shows [4c 4s] (three of a kind, Fours)
Andreazz73 collected $3.77 from pot



PokerStars Hand #115284745499: Hold'em No Limit ($0.01/$0.02 USD) - 2014/04/25 10:09:31 CT [2014/04/25 11:09:31 ET]
Table 'Halley' 6-max Seat #1 is the button
Seat 1: Gyro$ Pit4 ($2.45 in chips)
Seat 2: marjoryaaa ($2.42 in chips)
Seat 3: korrida66 ($2 in chips)
Seat 4: boksiukas ($4.19 in chips)
Seat 5: drk55 ($2.36 in chips)
Seat 6: Maxi_Kiselev ($2.15 in chips)
marjoryaaa: posts small blind $0.01
korrida66: posts big blind $0.02
*** HOLE CARDS ***
boksiukas: folds
drk55: folds
Maxi_Kiselev: folds
Gyro$ Pit4: folds
marjoryaaa: raises $0.04 to $0.06
korrida66: calls $0.04
*** FLOP *** [8h 4d Td]
marjoryaaa: bets $0.12
korrida66: calls $0.12
*** TURN *** [8h 4d Td] [4s]
marjoryaaa: bets $0.35
korrida66: calls $0.35
*** RIVER *** [8h 4d Td 4s] [9c]
marjoryaaa: bets $1.02
korrida66: raises $0.45 to $1.47 and is all-in
marjoryaaa: calls $0.45
*** SHOW DOWN ***
korrida66: shows [9s 4h] (a full house, Fours full of Nines)
marjoryaaa: mucks hand
korrida66 collected $3.86 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $4 | Rake $0.14
Board [8h 4d Td 4s 9c]
Seat 1: Gyro$ Pit4 (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 2: marjoryaaa (small blind) mucked
Seat 3: korrida66 (big blind) showed [9s 4h] and won ($3.86) with a full house, Fours full of Nines
Seat 4: boksiukas folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 5: drk55 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 6: Maxi_Kiselev folded before Flop (didn't bet)


PokerStars Hand #115284767993: Hold'em No Limit ($0.01/$0.02 USD) - 2014/04/25 10:10:05 CT [2014/04/25 11:10:05 ET]
Table 'Halley' 6-max Seat #1 is the button
Seat 1: Maxi_Kiselev ($2.69 in chips)
Seat 2: v7362986 ($1.92 in chips)
Seat 3: Gyro$ Pit4 ($2.04 in chips)
Seat 4: zoobr94 ($5.22 in chips)
Seat 5: Santaschacki ($1.60 in chips)
Seat 6: therookie275 ($1.96 in chips)
v7362986: posts small blind $0.01
Gyro$ Pit4: posts big blind $0.02
*** HOLE CARDS ***
zoobr94: folds
Santaschacki: raises $0.06 to $0.08
therookie275: calls $0.08
Maxi_Kiselev: folds
v7362986: folds
Gyro$ Pit4: calls $0.06
*** FLOP *** [7c Js 9c]
Gyro$ Pit4: checks
Santaschacki: bets $0.08
therookie275: raises $0.08 to $0.16
Gyro$ Pit4: calls $0.16
Santaschacki: calls $0.08
*** TURN *** [7c Js 9c] [6c]
Gyro$ Pit4: checks
Santaschacki: checks
therookie275: checks
*** RIVER *** [7c Js 9c 6c] [Ks]
Gyro$ Pit4: checks
Santaschacki: bets $0.12
therookie275: raises $0.64 to $0.76
Gyro$ Pit4: folds
Santaschacki: raises $0.60 to $1.36 and is all-in
therookie275: calls $0.60
*** SHOW DOWN ***
Santaschacki: shows [Qc Ac] (a flush, Ace high)
therookie275: shows [Jd As] (a pair of Jacks)
Santaschacki collected $3.33 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $3.45 | Rake $0.12
Board [7c Js 9c 6c Ks]
Seat 1: Maxi_Kiselev (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 2: v7362986 (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 3: Gyro$ Pit4 (big blind) folded on the River
Seat 4: zoobr94 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 5: Santaschacki showed [Qc Ac] and won ($3.33) with a flush, Ace high
Seat 6: therookie275 showed [Jd As] and lost with a pair of Jacks

Sigh... I got nothing... haha. You win this round.

Edit: Maybe the big player pool is just showing you all the rare spaz outs
But yeah, I'm probs just bugged because I'm downswinging a bit at the moment.

Last edited by Swagneto; Fri Apr 25, 2014 at 11:42 AM..
 
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Fri Apr 25, 2014, 12:37 PM
(#16)
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,512
(Head Trainer)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Swagneto View Post
Edit: Maybe the big player pool is just showing you all the rare spaz outs
But yeah, I'm probs just bugged because I'm downswinging a bit at the moment.
idk the exact formula for how hands are featured in the zoom observation, but I do know that size of the pot is a big factor. If it were a nitfest I think we would see all the set over sets, AA v KK all in pre, set vs. NFD, etc. It just so happens that a lot of the big pots in 2nl do seem to include 1 or more players spazzing out or overvaluing TPTK.


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Fri Apr 25, 2014, 04:52 PM
(#17)
ArtySmokesPS's Avatar
Since: Oct 2011
Posts: 7,359
Quote:
Originally Posted by Swagneto View Post
I learnt the hard way that nobody jams 100BB without AA or KK anymore).
I go all in with (much) worse. I'm usually drawing nearly dead when I'm called though.


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Sat Apr 26, 2014, 03:08 AM
(#18)
braveslice's Avatar
Since: Feb 2013
Posts: 568
Even nits go broke time to time with TPTK at 2NL and 5NL, especially if they read you can have a draw.
 

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