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Should i stay or should i go??? opinions please

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Should i stay or should i go??? opinions please - Thu May 01, 2014, 07:27 AM
(#1)
thephoenix11's Avatar
Since: Mar 2012
Posts: 186
Ok so i've been grinding small stakes cash games for a few years now but only recently decided to give it a proper shot of grinding up the levels.

Before this time around i used to reload on a table and i wouldn't leave until i had won my money back. Sometimes i would be there all day losing 5-10 buy ins with no return.

This time around i decided to start leaving tables immediately if i lost my stack and move to another. I thought this would work out better but unfortunately it's not really happening. I'm making a profit but it's far too small to be good enough for grinding up the levels.

So the question is. What's better. To leave a try somewhere else, give it another go, or stay put till you get ur money back??

Any ideas on this side of things would be great thanks.
 
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Thu May 01, 2014, 07:40 AM
(#2)
pullin1988's Avatar
Since: Apr 2013
Posts: 717
I think it will depend mainly on 2 things

- are you tilting?
- are you playing against the fish?


If you start tilting (because you have lost a stack), then leave all tables and come back when you are feeling fresh, and feel like you are going to play your A game. Also review the hand in question to see if you have made a bad play or you got in as a favourite.

If you have identified that the table does not seem profitable, e.g. contains mainly regs, then go and find another table where you think the fish are at or player types that you think you will be the most profitable to play against.

If I lose a few buy-ins and I know that there are fish at the table, and I lost it to them I am staying (provided that I feel fresh, playing my best and not tilting in frustration), because fish should be where you can make the most money, e.g. when they stack off too light. Fish will on occasion get there with their 2 outer on the river (or something like that), etc, but you know that in the long run their play is losing money.

I don't think personally it is a good idea to play until you win your stack back, as it can likely lead to you play sub-optimally and getting frustrated.

If you want to increase your win rate, and that the table conditions are fine, you feel fresh, etc, then you may need to look into your game more and look for the leaks, or see if it just variance.

What is your win rate, if you don't mind me asking?

Cheers,

Matt

Last edited by pullin1988; Thu May 01, 2014 at 07:44 AM..
 
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Thu May 01, 2014, 10:06 AM
(#3)
thephoenix11's Avatar
Since: Mar 2012
Posts: 186
Hi matt.

I have mistakes in my game i know that, I'm always looking into them and trying to identify and improve against them.

Basically i have to be strict with myself as i can fall foul of chasing money too easily. So to try and combat this i force myself to leave the table as soon as my stack has gone no matter what the situation, table dynamics etc etc.

Whilst i think i'm losing less money from reloading too much on a tilting table, i can't help but wonder if i should give myself maybe a limited rebuy style.

Example. Before i would reload until i got my buy in's back and profit. Now i never reload period. Should i say maybe give myself a fixed amount of maybe 2 or 3 reloads to give myself chance at possibly a bad opening to the table or should i stick with my strict leaving?

It's hard to compare the two styles as before i hadn't done much reading on poker and wasn't applying the mathmatics but now i'm trying to automate the mathmatics in my brain using the charts and doing a lot more studying of the game.

Unfortunately i have adhd which means i understand things well but it takes a long time for them to stick. I also struggle with quick analysis and quick thinking. I can't do that table selection thing by watching a table for a few hands or however people do it. I just open the first table in the list and sit.

Thanks for your imput though.

As for my win rate i have no idea. All i know is in mtt's i've moved up from $0.11 buy ins to $0.25 buy ins. In Stt's i'm stuck as it's hyper turbo 2 centers and i hate hyper. My cash i'm unsure of tbh as i had a rule where if i made a profit i divided the profit by 2 and moved 1 lot to my gbp wallet and kept the rest to increase my bankroll. Unfortunately i don't (yet) have tracking software so i have lost count of weather i'm up or down overall. I think i'm either breaking even or just over at the minute.

Overall i'm a profitable player i'm just stuck as to weather i'm giving away potential profit by possibly being too rigid in my br management or if i'm protecting my loses by sticking to it.

Any ideas, suggestions, or learning material will be greatly appreciated
 
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Thu May 01, 2014, 10:27 AM
(#4)
JWK24's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 24,801
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Hi thephoenix11!

If you're not sure how much you're ahead or behind, then you can't say that you're a winning player... because you don't know. What I'd recommend is to do something like what I did before I recently got pokertracker. I had an excel sheet that I made up to track every time that I played. How much I bought in for and left each and every cash table with and for tourneys, tracked buy-in and return for each and every tournament.

That way, I can total up by week/month, etc... whatever timeframe that you want to use, to see what games I AM profitable at and what games I may be losing at. Then I can look further into it to see why I'm ahead or behind and then set my play schedule to be based on the games that I can beat consistently.

Bankroll management is a HUGE key. For tourneys, I use 100 buy-ins as my baseline. If I don't have 100 in my bankroll, then I can't play a tournament and need to work my way up to be able to.

Good luck at the tables.

John (JWK24)


Super-Moderator



6 Time Bracelet Winner


 
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Thu May 01, 2014, 11:11 AM
(#5)
thephoenix11's Avatar
Since: Mar 2012
Posts: 186
Hey there john.

Sorry i must clarify. I started my br from $0. Now that it's at $67 i can assure you i am profitable .

The problem arises in that i have split my br into 3 so that i have a separate br for stt's, mtt, and cash.

When i split my profits from all 3 br's and moved them from the usd wallet to the gbp wallet for cashout purposes they were lumped together and i didn't track that wallet. i only tracked the br's.

So if i made a profit of 37cents in a tourney and moved it to the gbp wallet then made $1.78 in a cash game it's all in there together. Over several months and much movement and a couple of cash reloads including a cash out it all gets lost.

It's complicated for me to explain. I've reloaded my cash br 3 times now with $8 or 10 buy ins. That sounds like a losing player but you have to remember that i would sit with $0.80 and play till i got to over $2.40. Say i hit $2.40 exactly i would leave the table. Take $0.80 (my stake) from the $2.40, Divide the remaining $1.60 by 2 so $0.80 and $0.80. then my stake plus $0.80 is returned to my br and $0.80 is transferred to my gbp wallet.

So although i've made 4 Reloads of $8 i have no idea how many profit transfers i've made or for how much.

Take into account that i've gone from $0 to over $100 if you include the cashout and the money currently sitting in my gbp wallet then i have definitely made profit. I just cant decipher where exactly that has come from and tbh i don't have the time to get an audit and dissect it.

I am going to get PT4 but i need the moolah first which i ain't got at the min lmao.

Thank you for your suggestion though.

I have amended my br management so instead of splitting profit on a table by table basis i now sit with $0.80 and leave either when i've lost it or trebled it. If i treble it or more i leave and add the whole lot to my br. Then if eventually i get to 50 buy ins or $40 i'll move profit over the $40 to the gbp wallet. I have only made this change in the last week though so i'm still unsure as to long term profitability.

But to the topic at hand. Assuming nothing, Should i give myself a second chance at a table or am i right in leaving straight away?

thank you for your imput it's appreciated.

P.S.

I should point out that when i use the term reload i do not mean i have deposited money from my bank account.

I mean that my usd wallet is my bankroll's and my gbp wallet is my profit. When i say reload i mean i have moved money from my gbp (profit) wallet back into my usd (br) wallet.

Last edited by thephoenix11; Thu May 01, 2014 at 11:14 AM.. Reason: Important note
 
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Thu May 01, 2014, 11:38 AM
(#6)
JWK24's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 24,801
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If you're staying at a table trying to triple up... I think that's really ambitious. When I'm playing a ring, I normally leave at between 50-100% and I also set a stop-loss.

If you're having trouble tracking it, I'd really recommend setting up an excel sheet. It'll be an easy way for you to track it. Have one for mtt's, one for cash. Then, you can go a step further and break it down by type and buy-in for tourneys (ex: 25 cent 45's, 25 cent 90's, 25 cent MTT) and table type for cash (ex: 2NL FR, 2NL 6-max, 2NL ZOOM)

I know that when I started doing this, it helped me tremendously, as I was able to see very quickly what games I was crushing (play more of) and what ones I was not doing as well at (play less of).

Building up a bankroll from scratch is hard work, but it's very satisfying when you achieve it.

John (JWK24)


Super-Moderator



6 Time Bracelet Winner


 
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Thu May 01, 2014, 11:53 AM
(#7)
thephoenix11's Avatar
Since: Mar 2012
Posts: 186
hey john.

You have me intrigued with this message. I'm always open to new ways of doing things and i might be interested in maybe adopting your strategy if i could ask.

An example would help clear my mind on it and weather i should give it serious thought.

I presume when you say 50%-100% you mean making profit of 50% of your starting stack so $1 plus 50% would be $1.50??? and could you elaborate on the stop loss.

Maybe i'm going about this wrongly. i've always done the treble up but now i think about it i bust quite a lot even if i'm profitable and i make $1.20 (my buy in is $0.80) in my sleep.

I think i've been doing this wrong all along and maybe cost me a ton of money.

Jees.

Thank you very much john.

A couple examples and an elaboration on the stop loss would be massively appreciated, i think i need to change my ways.

Devasted but massively thankful.
 
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Thu May 01, 2014, 01:07 PM
(#8)
JWK24's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 24,801
(Super-Moderator)
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When I'm playing a ring, let's use 2NL for an example.

I'll always sit down with the max allowed ($2). When I get to $3-$4, then I'm going to stop playing at that table (unless it's a very fishy table, where I'll stay a bit longer).

For a stop-loss, I don't like going below 1/2 of what I buy-in for... so if I get down to $1 (sometimes I'll set it at 50 cents), I'm also most likely going to leave the table. If I get up to say $4 and don't leave a table, then I'm not going below $2.

I also always want to buy-in for the maximum allowed, as I want to be able to make the highest profit that I can off of my better hands. If I only sat with 80 cents, then I can only win 80 cents, but if I sit with $2, then I can win $2. Another thing that I will always do is to wait for the BB before I start playing. I don't want to waste extra blinds to be able to immediately play. Paying these over and over again is a huge drain to a player's bankroll.

One thing that I do not want to do at a table is to start chasing losses and rebuying over and over. I want to stick with my game, regardless of what happens.

The key with playing this game is to continually learn to be a better player. Sometimes it's from watching and listening to others... sometimes.. it's by learning things the hard way. The big thing is to keep learning and to make ourselves better players.

John (JWK24)


Super-Moderator



6 Time Bracelet Winner


 
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Thu May 01, 2014, 01:44 PM
(#9)
thephoenix11's Avatar
Since: Mar 2012
Posts: 186
Thank you for replying john.

I grasp what you are saying totally now.

I'm going to stick with my min buy in approach for now as i'm always finding it harder when i sit full but i'm going to adjust my habits.

Leaving if i drop below half stack and leaving once over stack plus half.

Still unsure as to rebuy in certain situations. For instance i find a few fish that hit lucky on me, or suffer a QQ v KK situation early on. Undecided as to maybe try single rebuy in these situations otherwise i think it's time i modified my br managment.

I've also decided to take the day off playing. I've requested a player audit from the start of my $0 challenge and am going through it with a microscop to separate my br's and evaluate my profit loss for each individual discipline.

Will post results when i complete.

Thanks for your advice in this, it's greatly appreciated and hopefully a small improvement will follow.

Any other tips or advice is most welcome.

Thank You.
 
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Thu May 01, 2014, 02:52 PM
(#10)
JWK24's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 24,801
(Super-Moderator)
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for my spreadsheet, here's what I used.. granted it may be more detail than most might use.

ring: date, table stakes, game type, buy-in amount, cash out amount (what I left the table with), vpp's earned

tournament: date, tourney number, game type, finish position, number of entrants, buy-in, return, vpp's earned

I made each a line on the sheet and had a running total for my bankroll and vpp's.

I then broke it down into individual game type and totaled ITM% and ROI (ex: quarter 45's, $1.10 MTT, $2.20 MTT, etc)

John (JWK24)


Super-Moderator



6 Time Bracelet Winner


 
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Fri May 02, 2014, 07:51 PM
(#11)
thephoenix11's Avatar
Since: Mar 2012
Posts: 186
Ok so this has taken longer than i though. Had to take 2 days off to break down my audit figures.

Since this was for cash i will give you my number.

The good news is that from 20/09/13 to yesterday i am indeed in profit.

The bad news is i'm in profit by a whopping $2.38

Thank you john i think this gives me the push to take a major look at my cash game. 7 months and only $2.30 means i got a bit of a problem.

First step will be to implement the 50% rule. Maybe my treble up rule has cost me more than i thought.

My only cash stake has been 2nl (i think that's the term for $0.01/$0.02?)

I could make other stats such as how many games etc etc but i really don't have the time.

Thanks again john you been a big help and hopefully that $2.38 will grow a bit faster now

P.S. I'm going to start a blog on my $0 to who knows journey. the figures for my stt's and mtt's will be in there if your interested.
 

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