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Flush draw flop mistake?

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Flush draw flop mistake? - Thu May 01, 2014, 01:53 PM
(#1)
BigLeDbury's Avatar
Since: Apr 2014
Posts: 30
BronzeStar
I'm interested to know what others would've done differently on this hand. I didn't have any reads on the guy but thought he may have been trying to bluff me out of the hand on the wet board. I had the nut flush draw and a backdoor straight draw when I called his re-raise all-in.

 
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Thu May 01, 2014, 06:37 PM
(#2)
TrumpinJoe's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 4,557
Questions:
Why risk the tournament on a draw with about 25 blinds left?

Your backdoor strait is worth about 1 out so it is a minor factor. This means you are breaking even only if they have AJ- with no clubs. A set or a club (within their calling pre-range) you are no longer even. Is this a situation you want to be in?

If you have no reads why assume a bluff? A big Ace trying to push out draws makes more sense. I prefer to err on the side of caution and give unknowns credit for being reasonable until they have proven otherwise. If they turn out to be bad players you'll have many chances to get your money back, but not so if they know their way around the table.

Lastly, which should have been first, what was your plan for this hand? The old saying "Failure to plan is planning to fail." is as applicable to poker as it elsewhere.

I see you are new here. Welcome aboard. I'm not one to sugar coat things. If you find my words harsh you are in for some huge surprises.

Good decisions -- The secret to winning poker.
 
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Thu May 01, 2014, 06:48 PM
(#3)
thephoenix11's Avatar
Since: Mar 2012
Posts: 186
First post. welcome to the group I'm realatively new here so the old hands will have better takes but here's my analysis of the hand.

Firstly i'd like to know why you were in the hand to start with. KQ suited is nowhere near good enough for an UTG raise. unless you flop a set you pretty much have no advantage in the hand.

Ok you're preflop raise was just over min. If you are going to raise these kinds of hands preflop your raise should be at least 3X bb. Sometimes you'll get the AJ to fold preflop and not have to face the situation (but you still shouldn't really be in the hand).

On the flop you're c-bet is the same as you're preflop bet, the shove is 10x your bet and your draw is only about 36% to hit. Not a good situation to be in.

Since you seem new here i would recommend viewing the starting hand's chart, the pot odds chart and looking up position to help you avoid this situation again.

Sorry it's negative feedback but turn it into a positive, learn from your mistakes and you'll do better in future
 
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Fri May 02, 2014, 03:43 PM
(#4)
ArtySmokesPS's Avatar
Since: Oct 2011
Posts: 7,359
Quote:
Originally Posted by thephoenix11 View Post
KQ suited is nowhere near good enough for an UTG raise. unless you flop a set...
Kwing sooted is my favourite hand, but I don't think I've ever flopped a set with it.
To flop a set, you need to hold a pocket pair.

I'd generally recommend beginners fold KQs UTG, but it's playable in some situations. On this flop, I'd either bet-fold or check-call, hoping to bink the turn. I'm not going broke with just a flush draw.


Bracelet Winner
 
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Fri May 02, 2014, 03:57 PM
(#5)
baud2death's Avatar
Since: Nov 2012
Posts: 1,249
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I don't hate the UTG KQs but it has to flop well. You are possibly being flatted by AQ but unlikely to be flatted by AK, would expect a 3-bet there, either way you need to hit a King or Queen and get passive action.

KQ is a lovely hand but is so player and situation conditional

I really don't like the flush draw gamble there. You had about 30% chance to improve, 30% is weak to be betting against in that spot, just fold to the action.. if he was bluffing you off, then fine let him
 
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Fri May 02, 2014, 07:36 PM
(#6)
thephoenix11's Avatar
Since: Mar 2012
Posts: 186
Quote:
Originally Posted by ArtySmokesPS View Post
Kwing sooted is my favourite hand, but I don't think I've ever flopped a set with it.
To flop a set, you need to hold a pocket pair.

I'd generally recommend beginners fold KQs UTG, but it's playable in some situations. On this flop, I'd either bet-fold or check-call, hoping to bink the turn. I'm not going broke with just a flush draw.
Hehe you never seen a paired flop? don't always need a pocket pair

The point i'm trying to make is from utg you really need to flop v/well to play on. Hit top pair and as baud says AQ can easily flat and you're in trouble.

I'm not saying it's not playable but for a beginner it's very risky business.

In my view to play it depends on table image, table assessment, opponent reads post flop. way too advanced for a beginner and a lot of middle players.

Playable yes but you have to play it right.
 
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Sat May 03, 2014, 01:07 PM
(#7)
ArtySmokesPS's Avatar
Since: Oct 2011
Posts: 7,359
Quote:
Originally Posted by thephoenix11 View Post
Hehe you never seen a paired flop? don't always need a pocket pair
I've seen a some paired flops my last 250,000 hands. I've still never flopped a set with KQs.

I think you're confusing a set with trips. Both mean three of a kind, but a set is a much better hand than trips, partly because it's so well disguised (which makes it easier to get paid off), but also because it has more outs to a full house. Indeed, one of the worst things that can happen when you have trips is that your opponent has a well concealed boat.
To repeat, you can only make a set with a pocket pair.


Bracelet Winner
 
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Sat May 03, 2014, 08:27 PM
(#8)
thephoenix11's Avatar
Since: Mar 2012
Posts: 186
Ok Arty so i got my poker terminology mixed up. But the sentiment is the same.

You need KQ to flop so well from early position for it to profit long term. Unless your an advanced player who can think about things like table image, floating and the like you should really play more solid hands in EP.

Thanks for the language lesson though
 
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Sat May 03, 2014, 10:37 PM
(#9)
TrumpinJoe's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 4,557
Quote:
Originally Posted by thephoenix11 View Post
Unless your an advanced player who can think about things like table image, floating and the like you should really play more solid hands in EP.
Are you sure of your terminology here?

Table image is a very basic concept that needs to be thought upon very early in one's poker education.

Floating is tool for no later than early intermediate players. It's an essential part of planning your hand before committing the first chip.
 
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Sun May 04, 2014, 03:54 AM
(#10)
thephoenix11's Avatar
Since: Mar 2012
Posts: 186
wow you guys are brutal.

KQs ain't that good preflop unless you know what you are doing with it.

Can i get away with that?
 
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Sun May 04, 2014, 11:57 AM
(#11)
awmm83's Avatar
Since: May 2013
Posts: 142
You have an M score of roughly 20. Your strategy should be restealing .That said, The raise isn't a disaster as being 1st in is +EV when blinds are higher ( Only steal when blinds/antes are worth 15%+ of stack. Risk/reward.) You should have shoved the flop though. Always maximise fold equity ( I doubt he would have laid down his ace though, his call was a disaster pre flop) . Your main priority with stack size,however, should have been restealing . I advise reading Kill everyone . It's a great book.

Last edited by awmm83; Sun May 04, 2014 at 11:59 AM.. Reason: addition
 
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Paired boards - Sun May 04, 2014, 12:05 PM
(#12)
awmm83's Avatar
Since: May 2013
Posts: 142
Just noticed talk of paired boards. Paired boards are the realm of full houses. I'd advise that you rarely get excited about trips (unless deep into a tournment). They are called trips for a reason.
 

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