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AK v 1 caller oop missed flop

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AK v 1 caller oop missed flop - Fri May 02, 2014, 10:50 AM
(#1)
thephoenix11's Avatar
Since: Mar 2012
Posts: 186
I don't have a hand for example but i fall foul of this situation all the time.

I get AK either in the blinds or ep and make the standard 3x raise and normally end up with mp or lp caller.

I miss the flop and it normally goes c-bet, call, cbet, call and either bluff lose or check check to single pair lose on the river.

Being out of position i was wandering if my c-bets are wrong or if i should just make the one and turn passive??

This situation costs me a lot of tournaments and cash game chips any tips or help would be greatly appreciated.
 
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Fri May 02, 2014, 11:09 AM
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baud2death's Avatar
Since: Nov 2012
Posts: 1,249
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If you are playing vs a lot of fish (perhaps low stakes) then fish call and never fold, even with bottom pair... very much bluff proof.

So if you miss, a c-bet is still worthwhile if it is checked to you and you miss but if it fails, just check it down.

Also, when you make this play and do get to the river, take a note of the opponent in question and what they called the flop with. If it was bottom pair then he is fish and you just tag him, note down what he does and wait until you have a real hand so he can call down your monster.

AK is very fit/fold post-flop, its definitely good for a c-bet (ATC are generally good for a c-bet if you have PRF and have the lead) but thats it unless you have a read on your opponent that he will call 1 street to draw and fold to a turn bet.
 
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Fri May 02, 2014, 11:16 AM
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thephoenix11's Avatar
Since: Mar 2012
Posts: 186
Sorry i thought out of position was being first to act post flop? and in position was being last to act?

Have i got these muddled up?

To answer your questions though. Normally i'm either in the blinds so last to act preflop but first to act post flop.

Preflop i'll go for either a 3x raise or if one raiser i'll go for 3x his bet if not all in pre flop.

The situation normally happens when there's no raise and i go 3x and get 1 caller. Post flop i'm first to act and i always lead with a 2/3 pot bet.

Were i tend to lose the most is by continuing on the turn and river.

It is small stakes i'm playing but should i slow it down if i get called on the turn? or if it's a dry board (not draw heavy) am i right in continuing. I'm sorry i'm not sure what ATC or PFR(maybe preflop raise?) mean and i have none of the notes taking software or tracking software yet.

Just trying to plug a major leak in my game.
 
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Fri May 02, 2014, 11:23 AM
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baud2death's Avatar
Since: Nov 2012
Posts: 1,249
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thephoenix11 View Post
Sorry i thought out of position was being first to act post flop? and in position was being last to act?
That is right, so if you are out of position (in the BB, or early position)

Quote:
Originally Posted by thephoenix11 View Post
To answer your questions though. Normally i'm either in the blinds so last to act preflop but first to act post flop.
I removed this from my original post since you had already answered this in the OP and i missed it

Quote:
Originally Posted by thephoenix11 View Post
Preflop i'll go for either a 3x raise or if one raiser i'll go for 3x his bet if not all in pre flop.
Be careful later on as this could over commit you if you are raising 3x past 25/50.

Quote:
Originally Posted by thephoenix11 View Post
The situation normally happens when there's no raise and i go 3x and get 1 caller. Post flop i'm first to act and i always lead with a 2/3 pot bet.
C-bet should be 50%, more if you have more to act but 2/3 is far too much vs 1 opponent

Quote:
Originally Posted by thephoenix11 View Post
Were i tend to lose the most is by continuing on the turn and river.
So, don't...
A c-bet is either a) you have a hand and continue the lead b) a bluff

If it is a bluff then why continue bluffing if your opponent isn't folding.
Only keep the pressure on if you are sure that he will fold later on, otherwise its wasted

Quote:
Originally Posted by thephoenix11 View Post
It is small stakes i'm playing but should i slow it down if i get called on the turn? or if it's a dry board (not draw heavy) am i right in continuing. I'm sorry i'm not sure what ATC or PFR(maybe preflop raise?) mean and i have none of the notes taking software or tracking software yet.
PRF = preflop raise/preflop raiser
ATC = any two cards

If you get called, at low stakes with lots of fish and no read on your opponent, its check/fold or check/call the rest of the way. You made a play to bluff the flop using your aggression preflop as leverage, the bluff failed so give up, otherwise you will bleed chips
 
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Fri May 02, 2014, 11:29 AM
(#5)
thephoenix11's Avatar
Since: Mar 2012
Posts: 186
Quite a bit to take in there. Thank You.

So basically given that i'm small stakes, I'm ok with the c-bet but given the stakes unless i'm drawing strong i should slow it down if i get called on the flop?

I think that's where i'm going wrong. Maybe forgetting the level i'm at.

Thanks for your help baud.
 
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Fri May 02, 2014, 11:44 AM
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baud2death's Avatar
Since: Nov 2012
Posts: 1,249
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thephoenix11 View Post
Quite a bit to take in there. Thank You.

So basically given that i'm small stakes, I'm ok with the c-bet but given the stakes unless i'm drawing strong i should slow it down if i get called on the flop?

I think that's where i'm going wrong. Maybe forgetting the level i'm at.

Thanks for your help baud.
I would not even bother with a c-bet if you know an opponent will stay in on anything
Check-Check it down and punish them the times you do hit.

Don't c-bet on reflex as some decent opponents at that level may float your c-bet and when you check the turn they will raise you and get you to fold.

AK is designed to hit an ace or a king.
Think of it like 22, if your 22 hits a board without a 2, are you getting heavy with it? no, its check/fold without a set in most cases.

Don't get fancy with AK.
If you are unsure if your opponents with fold to a c-bet, then give it a go but keep an eye on them to note their behaviour.
if you are sure they will fold to a c-bet or that they won't, then adjust accordingly.

Fish are often quite predictable, they have a specific line they follow as fit/fold. They will check down a weak hand, raise a strong hand and have no care in the world as to your holding.

Just save your chips, consider the preflop raise as an investment to get some cheap info on your opponent and check it down if you don't hit.

As you get more confident and know when to avoid getting stuck in a calling station trap and when a c-bet takes an easy preflop pot, that is when you can get fancier by double barreling, floating and counter-floating.

For the moment though, just play strong when you have it and get out when you don't, there will be plenty of opportunities for you to chip up when you do have it.

One game i remember that I tried to bluff a fish with 3 barrells, i had semi-bluff outs which didn't hit and he called my river bet with bottom pair and no other equity. I tagged him and kept an eye on him as he later raised King high in two occasions and kept betting each street with nothing, but got lucky on the river to a big pot... sick, but a great opportunity to note down.

On the Final Table of the SNG, a hand came up when I hit a set and he had JJ, he gave me all of his chips and had no concept that because I was willing to stack off against him that I could possibly have him beat.

Better to beat the fish than be the fish and if you are paying off fish by bluffing into them repeatedly then really, to them you are the weaker.
 
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Fri May 02, 2014, 12:11 PM
(#7)
thephoenix11's Avatar
Since: Mar 2012
Posts: 186
Interesting reading there.

Thanks for the help. I really need to remember the stakes i'm playing and be more observant of what my opponents are doing. (maybe that's the bigger leak :/)

Will take this on board and apply it and see where i go.

Thanks for the help.
 
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Fri May 02, 2014, 03:17 PM
(#8)
ArtySmokesPS's Avatar
Since: Oct 2011
Posts: 7,363
Whether you c-bet or not depends a lot on what the board texture is and which position villain is in, along with any reads you have. As a general guideline, you shouldn't be c-betting when OOP as often as you do when IP, particularly with hands that have showdown value. (AK high isn't good enough to c-bet for value, but has outs if it's currently losing to one pair, so you should try and keep the pot small).
On connected boards that connect with a villain's range, check-folding when OOP is perfectly fine. e.g. If you open UTG and the button calls and the board is a two-tone J97, and you have no flush draw, a check-fold is standard, and c-betting is kind of spewy, since villain is hardly ever folding on the flop.


Bracelet Winner
 
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Fri May 02, 2014, 03:59 PM
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baud2death's Avatar
Since: Nov 2012
Posts: 1,249
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ArtySmokesPS View Post
Whether you c-bet or not depends a lot on what the board texture is and which position villain is in, along with any reads you have. As a general guideline, you shouldn't be c-betting when OOP as often as you do when IP, particularly with hands that have showdown value. (AK high isn't good enough to c-bet for value, but has outs if it's currently losing to one pair, so you should try and keep the pot small).
On connected boards that connect with a villain's range, check-folding when OOP is perfectly fine. e.g. If you open UTG and the button calls and the board is a two-tone J97, and you have no flush draw, a check-fold is standard, and c-betting is kind of spewy, since villain is hardly ever folding on the flop.
A c-bet when OOP is workable if you are the Preflop aggressor but it is very player conditional. In low stakes I would even say that the board doesn't matter as much as it might in higher stakes because fish will calling station with any part of it and arent afraid of any part of it.

Bottom line, if you can't figure out the best place to C-bet profitably, dont do it
 
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Fri May 02, 2014, 07:39 PM
(#10)
thephoenix11's Avatar
Since: Mar 2012
Posts: 186
Thanks guys. I've just recently started introducing c-betting into my game as a concious effort.
It works but obv not all the time. Figuring out when and where is the problem but knowing how to identify is difficult.

Have read all comments and taking things on board just gotta work it in and see where i go

Thanks guys, appreciate the feedback.
 

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