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KK OOP facing river jam - 2nl 6max zoom

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KK OOP facing river jam - 2nl 6max zoom - Fri May 02, 2014, 11:25 AM
(#1)
Swagneto's Avatar
Since: Feb 2014
Posts: 34
Hey guys! Here's a hand where I was really unsure what to do... mainly because of deep stacks.

Villain stats are 23/17/afq42 over a 30 hand sample.




Looking back, I think I took a bad line, and I'm too much of a nit. :P
 
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Fri May 02, 2014, 11:39 AM
(#2)
Paddy Gar's Avatar
Since: Apr 2010
Posts: 439
Yeah I would just 5 bet get it in pre flop. I think his flat preflop is a lot of medium strength hands, and when you 3 bet he's putting you on a squeeze play and looking to ship his stack a little lighter than he normally would.

What's your image like? Have you been 3betting a lot, squeezing?

Really weird line by the villain in this hand. I don't think he's got AQ when he jams the river. Would expect him to check back jacks or tens. We block some combos of AK but I guess he could have AK/AQ clubs here?
 
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Fri May 02, 2014, 11:56 AM
(#3)
baud2death's Avatar
Since: Nov 2012
Posts: 1,249
BronzeStar
I don't like how you froze up on this one.
KK in this spot is a hand I would stack off with and would get it in preflop.
I really don't get the flat on the preflop... he either has AA and you are folding or he doesn't and you are putting another bet in.

Calling here is only a good play if you are setting up a trap.
Like C-betting the flop and reshoving any bet he gives you or check-raising the flop.

I think you feared AA and Ax here and wanted to see a flop to fade an Ace.
Then when the Queen showed you thought AA or QQ.

I do think you are being too nitty here. If he has you beat then thats life and you put it down to variance, rebuy and thats poker.

If you are folding here because you COULD be beat then you are letting worse hands Stack off against you and are only getting paid off by passive opponents who wont play back.

KK is a shove preflop
KK is only a call if you don't think you cant get your opponent to stack off preflop and need to put some tricks in on the flop to do so.

If you went in with KK fearing you were beat, you should have just folded
 
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Fri May 02, 2014, 12:43 PM
(#4)
Swagneto's Avatar
Since: Feb 2014
Posts: 34
Okay, thanks guys. I just never like to get it in with ~175BBs without the nuts. Guess there's some arguments for just dropping out and rebuying. I will definitely jam next time due to it being a squeeze pot. I've seen 2nl villains completely spaz out against squeeze plays, and it must have just passed my mind this time.

Also, there was no image here because this is a zoom table, but I do balance my 3bet range decently well, although rarely do I do it light in multiway pots due to aforementioned spazzing.
 
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Fri May 02, 2014, 01:02 PM
(#5)
Paddy Gar's Avatar
Since: Apr 2010
Posts: 439
no need to be balancing at microstakes swag. If it's a plus ev move to 3bet a guy, do it.

I've seen villain spazz with 99/1010/JJ/AQ in this spot. Would be fist pump getting it in here.

Totally understand where you're coming from being so deep. Most people are the same and I think in general it can def be a mistake to ship 175bb w/KK. I feel like this is one of the spots where it isn't.

Also if villain is an aggresive 3bettor it would be a great spot for him to 3bet ip with a premium if you think about it.

Last edited by Paddy Gar; Fri May 02, 2014 at 01:10 PM..
 
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Fri May 02, 2014, 01:13 PM
(#6)
baud2death's Avatar
Since: Nov 2012
Posts: 1,249
BronzeStar
KK is the 2nd nuts, would you get it in with the 2nd nuts?

this is the right decision 80% of the time.

In a tournament, this decision is harder because you can't rebuy and be back where you were. In a cash game it is simple pot odds. Unless you have a read that your opponent with ALWAYS have AA here (ie you have played 100s of hands against him and he only ever plays this way if he has AA, never JJ/QQ) then its auto-stack off

Lets assume our opponent here is only getting it in with AA/KK/QQ/AK - top 4 hands.
Your odds of being ahead are 55%, and that is just with the top 4 hands!!

That means you could risk 175BB 100 times.
- You would lose 45 x 175BB (7,875BB)
- You would gain 55 x 175BB (9,625BB)
.. profit would be 1,750BB over 100 occasions - thats pretty worthwhile!

The problem you have is that the second you think you are behind, you reward the opponent by putting them on the only 2 hands that can beat you.

This isn't a trait only you have, its a common nit trait, when re-raised the nit playstyle will fear being beaten when they get played back at.

I saw a hand the other day, it was shocking.
It came A-5-6 (2 clubs) preflop raiser checks, opponent checks
Turn comes K (club) preflop raiser checks, opponent checks
River comes 3 preflop raiser checks, opponent 1/2 pot bets (and the pot isnt even that big right now), preflop raiser shows AA before folding

I had no idea what his opponent had, could have been a flush, two pair, a set.. no idea but the fact he folded AA shocked me.

He obviously wanted to trap the flop, got scared on the turn and just shut down.
His opponent might have had a flush, he might not but the NIT in question automatically shutdown thinking he was beat because he didn't have the nuts.

That might make you money in the longrun but playing that scared makes the game not-fun!
 
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Fri May 02, 2014, 01:34 PM
(#7)
Swagneto's Avatar
Since: Feb 2014
Posts: 34
Lol, thankfully I'm not quite that bad, and my aggression is normally higher than all this passivity that's being displayed. I just have a phobia of 3x 4bets, as when they usually come from players that I can't easily identify as fish they represent a hand that just begs to be called or raised over the top of - and I can't count the number of times someone has 4bet me with AA in these spots.

I obviously didn't have a plan at the time though, because bar a king dropping OTF this was always going to be problematic.

My new question is for future: Against a readless villain with a deeper effective stack (say, 300BBs, which is the most I try to get ever reach before rebuying) are we still 5 betting with the intention of calling a 6bet shove? Or is it better to flat and keep his range wider?
 
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Fri May 02, 2014, 02:06 PM
(#8)
Paddy Gar's Avatar
Since: Apr 2010
Posts: 439
thats a really tricky subject swag. I would say getting kings in 300bb deep vs unknown opponent is a mistake. For sure at zoom anyways. I would never do it if i had an inclination that the guy was tight.

You can always have some sort of read. Are they playing 1 table? In general you can't really be 300bb deep with someone without some reads, as you would both have to be sitting at the table for a period. In zoom it can happen and you can find out how many tables they are playing.

Think of it like this also. What type of hands would you willing to get 300bb in pre flop with? Probably only aces. Im sure a lot of villains are the same.

Most likely scenario when you 3bet 300bb deep is the villain will flat call will pretty much his entire range, as the implied odds could be huge. Positional factors MIGHT change villain tendencies, for example bvb villains should stack off lighter even when deep, with certain dynamics.

So, eh, I guess in short the answer is no.

Last edited by Paddy Gar; Fri May 02, 2014 at 02:12 PM..
 
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Fri May 02, 2014, 04:06 PM
(#9)
baud2death's Avatar
Since: Nov 2012
Posts: 1,249
BronzeStar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paddy Gar View Post
thats a really tricky subject swag. I would say getting kings in 300bb deep vs unknown opponent is a mistake. For sure at zoom anyways. I would never do it if i had an inclination that the guy was tight.

You can always have some sort of read. Are they playing 1 table? In general you can't really be 300bb deep with someone without some reads, as you would both have to be sitting at the table for a period. In zoom it can happen and you can find out how many tables they are playing.

Think of it like this also. What type of hands would you willing to get 300bb in pre flop with? Probably only aces. Im sure a lot of villains are the same.

Most likely scenario when you 3bet 300bb deep is the villain will flat call will pretty much his entire range, as the implied odds could be huge. Positional factors MIGHT change villain tendencies, for example bvb villains should stack off lighter even when deep, with certain dynamics.

So, eh, I guess in short the answer is no.
I agree that there must be some point where KK vs XX becomes problematic and you do have to add Zoom into the equation where you are readless and there are plenty of opponents out there just multi-tabling and folding anything but Aces.

I think this is one of those spots where no-one is going to say it is the wrong move to do so and it can be down to personal preference. Some would get it in all day with a massive stack, some would be careful because its zoom and its a big stack.

What I would say though is that there should have been more of a plan for what you intended to do once you called the preflop bet. You didn't have that and without that you would have been better to fold since you are putting yourself in a tough spot and people make poor decisions in tough spots.

I know that some people would just say "i am getting it in barring an ace showing" or "i am check-raising him and its going in" and whatever play it is, its a plan and my view is that any plan... even a complete donkey plan like doing the same thing with 72 (lol) is better than no plan
 

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