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2NL 6max line check KK

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2NL 6max line check KK - Sun May 04, 2014, 04:20 PM
(#1)
CrazYJohnnie's Avatar
Since: Apr 2012
Posts: 641
Villain is playing semi-decent, open limping some pots, no other dynamics. Stats 18/10, 3bet 3,3, AF 4,2. Check/fold river or check/fold turn? Kinda ugly board actually cant really think of worse made hands calling turn i think, AT and QQ only.
 
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Sun May 04, 2014, 06:54 PM
(#2)
Paddy Gar's Avatar
Since: Apr 2010
Posts: 439
i don't mind betting the turn johnnie, think it's fine.

Villain would raise a jack on flop i imagine so his range is super draw heavy imo.

You get value from tons of worse hands ott, can fold to a raise.

Lol at that river. EVERYTHING got there.
 
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Mon May 05, 2014, 10:15 AM
(#3)
awmm83's Avatar
Since: May 2013
Posts: 142
I would have made some slight differences. I like to raise 3.5 from Hijack because of position. On the flop i would raise higher because of the 3 way pot,the draw possibilities and the broadway board. 75% to pot If they call a pot bet you have to take them seriously before double barreling.The ace on the river was the end of it, but I think it might not have got that far had you made your bet sizes higher.
 
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Mon May 05, 2014, 10:21 AM
(#4)
awmm83's Avatar
Since: May 2013
Posts: 142
You can't rule out the Jack. Unless i had AJ i would not be reraising.Even then, i'd fear a boat.I would be calling down too, probably.Trips are painful.
 
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Mon May 05, 2014, 10:46 AM
(#5)
Paddy Gar's Avatar
Since: Apr 2010
Posts: 439
I think a jack should be raising this flop. It's quite co ordinated and draw heavy, plenty of turns that can kill the action. I think when we are called on the flop we're ahead almost always.
 
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Mon May 05, 2014, 11:19 AM
(#6)
awmm83's Avatar
Since: May 2013
Posts: 142
Totally agree about raising the jack on the flop , only, if there's a hand i've not learned to play , it's trips.I struggle to value trips with all the set mining in 6 max, Hence the caution and the desire to control the pot. Although , I do fear monsters too much .
 
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Mon May 05, 2014, 02:24 PM
(#7)
CrazYJohnnie's Avatar
Since: Apr 2012
Posts: 641
Quote:
Originally Posted by awmm83 View Post
I like to raise 3.5 from Hijack
Never heard that someone raises bigger from late position. Do you raise 4x from UTG then?

Umm yeah one of my bet slider presets is on 75%, dunno why i bet 12 cents, it is a bit small i should bet 13 to give wrong odds to draw to flush or open ender to both opponents.

Last edited by CrazYJohnnie; Mon May 05, 2014 at 02:28 PM..
 
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Mon May 05, 2014, 04:08 PM
(#8)
baud2death's Avatar
Since: Nov 2012
Posts: 1,249
BronzeStar
(preflop) This is fine, i like this
(flop) UGLY board, in MP I don't mind a c-bet here
(turn) With a board like this, I will probably check the turn for pot control and it wouldn't hurt to see where I am. If our opponent bets more than 1/2 the pot we can check/fold here but if its 1/2 or less (or even a check) then we keep the pot small so we can call on the river.
(river) Good check, here. I don't like the Ace but is an Ace really going to be beating me here? I am happy to check/call a reasonable bet or check/fold a big bet on the river. The ace shouldn't have changed anything there, if you weren't getting raised on the turn, I don't see a Ten or a Jack.. I honestly felt like in that spot it was a pair but the price you were getting to call the river was fair enough that I could have called it.

Overall... the only thing I would have done differently there is a bit of pot control on the turn. if our opponent has a monster then we are folding to any strong bets here (50% max please) otherwise we can check/call to the river for a good price and showdown. This might seem a bit passive but without position and only an overpair to such a messy board, we have no idea where we are and at best need to play for a small pot to get any value.
 
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Mon May 05, 2014, 05:21 PM
(#9)
Paddy Gar's Avatar
Since: Apr 2010
Posts: 439
just regarding checking the turn baud.

If we had some equity when raised i see a valid argument for checking the turn. Say the Aclubs peels instead of the 8diamonds. We now have the nut flush draw, so instead of being blown off our equity if we bet and are raised we can check call.

However, on the turn if we are raised on this board, we can muck pretty confidently, knowing we're never good here. Main point being that versus the range that villain raises turn with, our equity is terrible. So easy fold. However there's too many worse hands still on the turn to protect against, so I think betting is optimal.
 
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Mon May 05, 2014, 05:45 PM
(#10)
baud2death's Avatar
Since: Nov 2012
Posts: 1,249
BronzeStar
yup, its one of those situations where we start the fight with a bazooka but then the lights go off and we scramble around to pickup... a pistol.

Lights come back up and now I have no idea where that bazooka went.

... then all of a sudden a guy in the distance shouts "Is this what you were looking for!" and i can see him raising something bulky up to his shoulders.

RUNNNNN!!!!!


The second we feel the lead is taken away from us we should be looking to get done with the hand as cheapily as possible and wait for the next one. AA/KK are deceptivly strong and need the right opponents, spot and flop to work to our advantage

We need to be holding the Bazooka and stay holding it whilst our opponents are throwing rocks and sticks at us.. the second they find their own WMDs, we need to play it safe
 
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Mon May 05, 2014, 05:56 PM
(#11)
Paddy Gar's Avatar
Since: Apr 2010
Posts: 439
Did you watch Commando recently or something?

Lol, I heart that movie.
 
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Mon May 05, 2014, 07:23 PM
(#12)
baud2death's Avatar
Since: Nov 2012
Posts: 1,249
BronzeStar
dont think i have ever seen it
just felt the analogy worked for some reason

Bringing a bazooka to a spoon fight!

I love comparing poker to a fight, it often feels that way with big scary opponents, weak opponents, strong hands, strong stacks and weak stacks/hands. So many variables that all lead to one thing, someone winning and someone losing.

Sometimes it is more important how loud you can scream and your war-dance than the size of your gun!
... and sometimes, a pea-shooter can't beat a napalm air strike!
 
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Mon May 05, 2014, 07:44 PM
(#13)
ArtySmokesPS's Avatar
Since: Oct 2011
Posts: 7,316
This might sound weird, but I'm checking the flop with almost my entire range. (I bet trips and combo draws sometimes).

You're hardly ever going to get three streets of value from a worse hand on this board, so check it, planning to call if the button bets. On the turn, if he barrels for half pot or so, you can check-call again. (Usually fold to a big bet).
On safe rivers, you can generally fold if villain bets, because he'll nearly always have trips+ if he fires the third bullet. (Only the craziest bluffer will fire again with less than trips, and he'll check back stuff like Tx that has showdown value.) On the river that showed up here, it's an obvious fold as everything beats you.


Bracelet Winner

Last edited by ArtySmokesPS; Mon May 05, 2014 at 07:47 PM..
 
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Mon May 05, 2014, 07:50 PM
(#14)
Paddy Gar's Avatar
Since: Apr 2010
Posts: 439
@ Baud, watch commando, seriously. GOAT.

Like Artys thought on the hand also. Makes sense.
 
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Mon May 05, 2014, 11:58 PM
(#15)
CrazYJohnnie's Avatar
Since: Apr 2012
Posts: 641
Quote:
Originally Posted by ArtySmokesPS View Post
This might sound weird, but I'm checking the flop with almost my entire range. (I bet trips and combo draws sometimes).

You're hardly ever going to get three streets of value from a worse hand on this board, so check it, planning to call if the button bets. On the turn, if he barrels for half pot or so, you can check-call again. (Usually fold to a big bet).
On safe rivers, you can generally fold if villain bets, because he'll nearly always have trips+ if he fires the third bullet. (Only the craziest bluffer will fire again with less than trips, and he'll check back stuff like Tx that has showdown value.) On the river that showed up here, it's an obvious fold as everything beats you.
Yep, this thought yesterday crossed my mind and it doesnt sound weird. Like if i dont expect worse hands to be calling turn, why exactly do think i can get worse hands to call OTF?
Can i rep Jack tho if i check/call flop?
 
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Tue May 06, 2014, 03:12 AM
(#16)
baud2death's Avatar
Since: Nov 2012
Posts: 1,249
BronzeStar
You arent looking to represent a jack.
Your only concern here should be value. You are in a way ahead or way behind situation and are only getting called if beat, its check/call or check/fold depending on the price.

Sometimes when both opponents have less than what the board is suggesting, the board almost becomes immaterial and you are playing hole cards vs hole cards.

If the board helps your opponent, he will want value and will bet accordingly to drive a big pot - the second he does, walk away. If he wants to bluff that he does have it, let him because the times he tries that move again, when you do have it you can crush.

If the board helps you, you are doing the same, betting for value and driving a big pot.

If you both are happy to play for a small pot, chances are you both missed the big bits of the pot and its a bit passive but you are both on the same page and pair vs pair is good enough.

We don't always have to be billy big nuts! - nor does our opponent. Sometimes its just check/check to a quick decision.
 
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Tue May 06, 2014, 03:21 AM
(#17)
CrazYJohnnie's Avatar
Since: Apr 2012
Posts: 641
I still think about balancing issues then. When we bet this flop our range is widest possible and when we check are capped right. Then we need to be betting everything and checking everything otherwise we just say we dont have jack or combo monster when we check?
 
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Tue May 06, 2014, 03:44 AM
(#18)
baud2death's Avatar
Since: Nov 2012
Posts: 1,249
BronzeStar
The #1 mistake players make (that i made for a LONG time) is fit/fold and c-bet but check/fold the turn.

Just imagine the player. He has AK, raises UTG and gets 2 callers, you are in position as one of them. You have 77.
Flop comes Q-5-3. Your opponent C-bets, if he hit its possible he has AQ, otherwise a weak Queen. I likely can't see anything else repping strong here. The middle position player folds and you float.

Depending on the opponent, spot, stack sizes.. I could well float him here or just leave it, it would depend but often a float works well.

What does he do then? - most newbie players (ones that arent even aware of how to float) will fear your call and unless they improve on the turn they will check/fold. They convince themselves that not only are they behind but don't want to risk more chips on Ace high and fold.

So now you have a few choices as the PRF.
- continue betting, represent the Queen and counter any floats out there.
- check-raise, represent better than just a Queen and punish someone who you think is floating you with worse
- check-call, its not advisable but you are now playing for a small pot and hoping to draw your Ace or King
- check-fold, you are giving up on the hand completely

Option 1 and 2 are your best bets to stay aggressive, you have to have a good read on your opponent that they are floating you with worse because if they come back at you, you are most likely going to fold and will have lost money

Option 3 is not advisable, its weak and lets your opponent put you in a position where you are either calling with a bad hand or folding later than you should

Option 4 is OK but if you do this often, opponents will notice it and float you more often. This then means you don't c-bet at all (making you equally as predicatable) or you mix it up.


I would have more respect for a player that triple barreled me with nothing than folded constantly to my aggression because he is playing his cards face up for me and its very easy to win chips.


You never want your opponent to be able to predict what you have, so once in awhile when you think you should fold, trust a read and raise - you might get re-raised, you might not but you make yourself look less predictable.

I had one opponent who CONSTANTLY floated me, even when I had a hand. Knowing that he would do this everytime, he became predictable to me. So i just slowed down a bit and waited for a spot where I hit a hand, I let him float me and I called. He tried it again on the turn, I figure with my monster (top set) if I bet anything on the turn he would run away, so i played calling station - river card was an Ace if I remember rightly, I then decided to bet (I had put him on AK by this point) he shoves and I call.

He showed AQ (the board had no face cards at all aside from the river, nothing for him to actually have equity in)

The aim should be to play somewhat unpredictable to your opponents, let them be predictable to you but still aim to continue a line of value... being unpredictable shouldnt mean playing like a maniac, you still need to play your regular game.


Another example, I play a regular 2.20 satty and there is one player that appears more than others. I tag him as a good player and no doubt he has stats and reads on me too.

Sadly this makes my 2nd and 3rd level thinking on him predictable.
He likely knows how I play, he sees me deep often and will know that I can play.

So when i enter a pot and the board brings scare cards, it is VERY easy for me represent them or something better. If i can get him to play calling station, I can fire at him constantly and even put a value-bet bluff in on the river because he will think i have a strong hand and want to get paid.. he has no idea I have nothing.

I can do that because I recognize that he raises his strong hands and plays for small pots with his small hands. If i can get him to play passively and he has no intention of building a pot, as long as it doesnt look like I am over-betting, he is thinking "this guy plays like me, i play well, i would be betting the winning hand here, i cant beat that, i fold"
 
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Tue May 06, 2014, 06:54 AM
(#19)
awmm83's Avatar
Since: May 2013
Posts: 142
In 6 max the Hijack is not late position.I shouldn't even have used that term. . You have 2 players behind you calling their pp's or sc's. I don't want to give them an inch. I raise 3.5 utg and mp. 3 from Cut off and 2.5 from button. I tried 4x UTG but it discourages callers

I learned bet sizing from Harrington on 6 max cash . I would advise reading that and easy game by beluga whale.Oh and fee's 6 max also. My Three 6 max bibles

Last edited by awmm83; Tue May 06, 2014 at 07:20 AM..
 
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Tue May 06, 2014, 08:09 AM
(#20)
baud2death's Avatar
Since: Nov 2012
Posts: 1,249
BronzeStar
Yeah my 6-max needs study as im sure i miss tricks when i do play it (which is rarely)
Good books to read!
 

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