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Do You Need To Semi-Bluff OOP In Multiway?

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Do You Need To Semi-Bluff OOP In Multiway? - Mon May 05, 2014, 02:08 AM
(#1)
Tonk Shuffle's Avatar
Since: Jul 2011
Posts: 618


I think by not semi-bluffing the flop in this position I missed the opportunity to build a larger pot, because it is more likely to get callers with a speculative flop bet than a turn bet on a scary board.

Do you also think I also missed out on value by not raising 3bb-4bb pre-flop?
 
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Mon May 05, 2014, 03:49 AM
(#2)
baud2death's Avatar
Since: Nov 2012
Posts: 1,249
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You played this fine
Betting the flop doesn't make a terrible amount of sense since you limped in, you don't have the lead.

If you did bet, what does your opponent put you on? a rag hand with a 2,8 or 5 in it?
Overpairs to this flop would have typically raised (99+) and if you bet here you are likely to be put on the exact hand you have, a flush draw (although the straight draw is a bit hidden)

Also, what do you do if you are raised here? And how much would you call a raise for?

70% of the time, the turn is going to bring a non-diamond or no 4 so if it does brick, what do you do if the guy who floated your flop bet raises you?

A suited limp is typically going to build a fairly small pot, it only gets super big if your opponent caught a piece of it (like a set, two pair or even top pair) and he wants to fight for it

Bottom line : If you had the lead, a c-bet here is fine and gives you cards your opponent can have you represent (like an overpair), without the lead a check is fine. You are losing money with this hand most of the time if you bet the flop from a limp and your implied odds rely on the aggression and cards of your opponent to be paid off in the 30% of the times you do hit.
 
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Mon May 05, 2014, 09:54 AM
(#3)
awmm83's Avatar
Since: May 2013
Posts: 142
Limped pots aren't any cop in cash. I think the right play was a fold pre flop because of position. If i was in BB i would raise and play heads up but being in the SB you're inviting the BB to call and the limper to see a decent pot in position with great odds , despite being UTG. You're basically raising to pot to play in the worst position in a 3 way pot with a trash hand. I hope you see my logic.
 
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Mon May 05, 2014, 12:18 PM
(#4)
dirt eh's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 1,274
I would definitely lead on this board. Check-calling is also ok, but check calling is even less likely to get paid once a diamond comes. We have a decent amount of equity here vs. a UTG limp... Give UTG pocket 2s - 9s and we have about 48% equity vs. that hand range. Even if we just give the UTG villain sets.. 88,55,22 we still have 33%. Keep in mind that the BBs hand is random. They could have any 2 cards here including 2 diamonds.

Having said all of that. I like leading out here and I would also call a decent sized raise if UTG raises our DONKbet. We have the NFD, gutshot, and back door Str8 flush.
 
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Mon May 05, 2014, 12:32 PM
(#5)
HokyPokyToo's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 4,901
** moved to Basic Poker Hand Discussions **


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Mon May 05, 2014, 12:36 PM
(#6)
ArtySmokesPS's Avatar
Since: Oct 2011
Posts: 7,324
I hardly ever lead out if I just called pre, but in limped pots on boards like this I would bet with just about anything that has any equity. On an 852, villains will have missed with their random Broadways so often that you can expect a lot of folds, and that's great if you have ace high with no kicker. (Or if you had something like Q9cc).
With a combo draw this strong, I'd be happy to stack off on the flop to be honest, so would bet-raise and get it in, as you're flipping with hands like 99 and only getting it in bad against sets.


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Tempting...but - Mon May 05, 2014, 02:06 PM
(#7)
DrEllenCait's Avatar
Since: Jan 2013
Posts: 125
BronzeStar
Contrary to my previous betting, I would have passed this hand. It may look tempting to open A3 same suit, but it is still Ace rag. There's a good 'Poker Bite' on Ace/rag and the pros punctuate position, position, position
 
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Mon May 05, 2014, 03:41 PM
(#8)
Tonk Shuffle's Avatar
Since: Jul 2011
Posts: 618
Quote:
Originally Posted by awmm83 View Post
Limped pots aren't any cop in cash. I think the right play was a fold pre flop because of position. If i was in BB i would raise and play heads up but being in the SB you're inviting the BB to call and the limper to see a decent pot in position with great odds , despite being UTG. You're basically raising to pot to play in the worst position in a 3 way pot with a trash hand. I hope you see my logic.
Sorry, but could you please elaborate? Without any reads on the opponents, I thought that folding pre-flop was being too nitty. It is worth considering though. I have an A blocker, but would still range the limper with any 2 broadways, small/medium suited connectors, 22-55, Kxs, J9s, maybe Qxs, and the leftover Ax combinations. Generally anything stronger than this tends to get opened 3x pre-flop.

What I am wondering is whether or not A3s strong enough to isolate the limper out of position. ???? (I just noticed your post Ellen, ty.)

With the big blind still to act I would probably fold to a 3-bet pre-flop even if the limper came along. However if the big blind checks I have 5 to 1 pot odds. If the big blind opens 5x against the limpers; again, it is an easy fold.

I have to agree with Arty and dirt eh that I missed value by not leading with a semi-bluff on the flop. On one hand, the board is likely to have connected in someway with one of their ranges, and the limper can float or fold if he has over-cards or weak/medium strength draws. On the other hand, with this board texture, it is best to bet if it is likely that the action will get checked through.

When my draw hits it kills the action from the limper. I could have built a bigger pot on the flop. I definitely would have checked the turn, however, in hopes that one of the villains would try to steal the pot.

Thank you everyone for your input.
 
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Tue May 06, 2014, 01:06 PM
(#9)
awmm83's Avatar
Since: May 2013
Posts: 142
No problem.
To elaborate, folding your small blind is rarely too nitty. It is the worst position in poker. Calling a raise with PP's , sure, but generally play tight from there. In fact, folding is a very effective string
in your bow . People say it's weak so that you give them your money.



The fact that this is a limped pot is also a reason why you don't have to play. The postflop pot is 6 BB. Of which, you have voluntarily put in 1 BB. Despite the draw you have, you have very little preflop equity to protect . You will not always win the pot despite being a big favourite. There is a saying '' Don't go bust in a limped pot.'' It's not worth it.

On isolating villain with A3. UTG in 6 max the lowest Ace i play is ATs. Despite your Ace blocker, you're isolating yourself with your 3. There are only 2 reasons for betting in poker. Value or Bluff. Anything else is a consequence of either reason 1 or 2. Microstakes should be weighted towards reason 1. Bluffing is not as effective , as you've probably noticed by now

Also , the BB should know villain will call if you raise , so the BB should call with anything decent to see a discounted flop ( Remember, anyone who hasn't folded yet is still active). Maybe hit 2 pair.
That's why the SB sucks , you're pricing the BB in.

Last edited by awmm83; Tue May 06, 2014 at 01:12 PM..
 
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Tue May 06, 2014, 02:55 PM
(#10)
awmm83's Avatar
Since: May 2013
Posts: 142
I should also add this. In general , You want to play draws from position. By betting first you lose value because the opponents aren't putting their money in before you.Also by betting first you are less likely to build a big pot because you invite folds.
 

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