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Did i get max value from this hand?

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Did i get max value from this hand? - Mon May 05, 2014, 03:26 PM
(#1)
thephoenix11's Avatar
Since: Mar 2012
Posts: 186


Ok so we're just over an hour into a prem league tournament. I'm in the BB with 910s and utg+1 min raises.

He's been playing pretty solid but with no callers and only a min raise i figure i can peel a flop. The flop comes with 2nd pair and flush draw. Not wanting to commit too much i just check it to see what he does. With a small bet i figure i got odds for the draw and my 2nd pair is protection from a missed A c bet.

The turn is Ah and i've made my flush but wary of a dodgy river i check again. also to keep the pot smallish.

The river is another A so now i'm wary. I check again and he bets 400 again. At first i want to just call as i figure it's all too possible for him to be slowballing AJ but then i figure his small betting doesn't add up to a monster so i opt for a raise.

I won the hand but i can't help wonder if my thought process was correct. Or did i miss a big opportunity here for more chips. Or long term was i right to be in the hand.

Any thoughts please?

P.S. just seen his cards didn't show. His hole cards we're Ad7D.

Last edited by thephoenix11; Mon May 05, 2014 at 03:31 PM.. Reason: his hole.
 
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Mon May 05, 2014, 03:47 PM
(#2)
ArtySmokesPS's Avatar
Since: Oct 2011
Posts: 7,324
Check-raise the turn. Villain seems to have an ace, and he could have a big heart too, so make him pay to see the river. If he just calls the turn raise, you can shove all rivers, as you'll have less than a pot-sized bet behind.

Note that if the river had been a blank, villain is likely to check back all one pair hands, meaning you'd get no value for your monster, so you've got to get your value for your big hand on the turn.

There's also an argument for check-raising the flop too, as you have so much equity.


Bracelet Winner
 
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Mon May 05, 2014, 03:54 PM
(#3)
baud2death's Avatar
Since: Nov 2012
Posts: 1,249
BronzeStar
(preflop) T9s is a fold for me here. I am against the table chip leader, he covers me 2:1 and he has position over me for the entire hand. If I do decide to play this, I need to flop huge.

(flop) I like the check, you don't need to donk bet here and you only have a bit of equity here, with not that much behind I don't like us being able to see a small pot here to showdown. The bet here is just shy of 50%, in my head if I am behind to an overpair here, I need 2 more 9s, 4 x Ts, or 9 hearts, quick numbers say that I am getting an OK price to call this, I don't mind paying to see another card here.

(turn) Money card!! - I like the check here but as a check-raise, not a check call. Our opponent isn't betting enough for us to be able to get paid by the river, when the river comes you will have to either jam for full value (and risk not getting called) or value bet and get paid less. Had he called an x2 raise, 2680 would have been in the pot, you would have had 1800 behind and found it much easier to get the value you needed. Besides, if he isn't calling a raise on the turn, he most likely won't call a bet on the river either
(river) I don't like the check on the river, if he checked then you missed big value, lucky for you he bet and you could raise him but hard to count on that.

There was no reason for you to be wary of the river.. if he made a full house, good for him but most of the time he wouldn't have and getting value there was very important.

So in summary
> Flop was good, played it well - keep the pot small and get away easily if the turn doesn't come off
> Turn wasn't so good, you hit your hand and missed value. If you can get the money in no matter what and get called, great - but if not then you end up with a small pot and either a) have to overbet and risk getting a fold b) have to bet a regular percent of the pot and perhaps get a call but for much less value.

The second you hit your flush your goal should have been to get the most value.
> River wasn't so good either, you checked to him, your opponent most likely thinks he is ahead but could well freeze on the river if he dislikes the hearts and didn't improve on the river. He could check here and you miss a lot of value. If you led out, he might call you or he might not but unless you are VERY confident a check/raise here would work I wouldn't have tried it.

From what you were saying though, you didn't have a check-raise in mind, you checked because you were wary of the Ace, then when he bet you suddenly decided to raise. This seems to be like you acted 1-move at a time rather than thinking ahead to what could happen a few moves in the future.

If you check, what do you do if he bets?
If you bet, what do you do if he raises?

You can worry about these as they happen if you really want to but you end up in situations like you were, You have an instict that you should be wary of the ace so you check - when he bet, shouldn't you have been just as wary, after all nothing really changed!

If your plan was to check/call because of the Ace, you should have. It would have been bad value but if that was your plan you should have stuck to it. You went off your plan from the sounds of it and changed mid-stream. If you do this too often you will end up convincing yourself to call 1 bet after you were convinced he had a monster.You said that you were about call and then raised instead, suggesting you made that decision after weighing up things after he bet. This is all well and good but him betting 400 into you didn't really change much as far as I can tell and you should have been firm on what to do if he bet back at you before you checked... in your head something like "if i check and he bets low, i will raise" or "if i check and he bets high, I will call"

So in summary - you missed value in my opinion on the turn and (almost) the river, you over-valued a full house vs your flush and you didn't seem to have a concrete plan for the hand.
 
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Mon May 05, 2014, 04:15 PM
(#4)
thephoenix11's Avatar
Since: Mar 2012
Posts: 186
wow. Cheers guys. Need to take that on board.
Baud. If i may i'd like to take you back to my first mistake. Being in the hand to start with.

To me i already have 200 invested in the pot. He raises 200 and with sb and antes this gives me 4-1 pot odds for the call. Now i know 910s ain't the best of hands but in this instance i thought it was a good fishing opportunity with relatively cheap price tag.

Long term is this a bad idea or is your thought more based on the fact i'm taking on the table leader with double my stack?

I also get stuck on the concept of equity. Gonna have to look this up.

Thanks again. Good feedback.
 
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Mon May 05, 2014, 04:45 PM
(#5)
baud2death's Avatar
Since: Nov 2012
Posts: 1,249
BronzeStar
Quote:
Originally Posted by thephoenix11 View Post
wow. Cheers guys. Need to take that on board.
Baud. If i may i'd like to take you back to my first mistake. Being in the hand to start with.

To me i already have 200 invested in the pot.
You didn't have anything invested in the pot.
Your Big blind is a compulsory bet and like antes, its just the cost of playing.

Calling for this reason will get you into a lot of trouble more often than not.
Everytime I get involved from the SB/BB, I think to myself "i like my cards, but i hate my position - if i call this, i need to flop VERY well, because I am first to act!"

Just consider your blinds spent, ignore their cost and don't worry too much about protecting them.
Protecting blinds is worthwhile if you know what hands to do it with against the right opponents.

If a loose opponent is raising from the button, you may want to protect your blinds by raising him, but calling is a losing proposition most cases.

If any opponent is raising from UTG, protecting your blinds from him is really not worth it unless your read is 100% dead on that he is stealing from that far back.

Quote:
Originally Posted by thephoenix11 View Post
He raises 200 and with sb and antes this gives me 4-1 pot odds for the call. Now i know 910s ain't the best of hands but in this instance i thought it was a good fishing opportunity with relatively cheap price tag.
I like that you are thinking about the pot odds but position is a very strong consideration here. Also, your hand isn't one that flops a made hand often. you have about 2% chance to flop a straight or a flush and even when you do, its so obvious you won't get paid.

Its different than making the same move with a pair because not only can you flop a set, its quite easy to get paid on it.

As well, because you are out of position you have to bet out of position. This gives massive information to your opponent and they can control things so that if you do hit a big hand you will get minimial value from it and if you hit a strong but marginal hand you can get trapped by a better one.

Position is the most important factor in Poker, even more important than having the right cards.
You can have AA out of position and get paid less than 72o in position sometimes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by thephoenix11 View Post
Long term is this a bad idea or is your thought more based on the fact i'm taking on the table leader with double my stack?

I also get stuck on the concept of equity. Gonna have to look this up.

Thanks again. Good feedback.
Equity is very important.. Its all about what chance you have to win chips based on your hand and the circumstances around you.

Pot equity is an example.


The most important consideration for me when calling or raising out of position is down to where will i be on the next street.

If I will be out of position, how well does my hand play out of position?
Also, what do i plan to do if i don't flop well?

I reckon you will lose more than you win by calling hands like that in the BB.
I do think that no matter if you decide to call or not call, you should always be thinking about what would happen if you did call? What would the flop need to look like for you to proceed? What type of action do you expect?

If you are thinking that your hand is good to see a flop but unless you hit a flush, straight or two pair you will fold to a bet, thats great!! - It still might be a bad move to call that hand OOP but at least you avoid getting yourself stuck by playing something like middle pair to the river for 1/2 your stack because you are just thinking 1-street at a time
 
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Mon May 05, 2014, 05:08 PM
(#6)
thephoenix11's Avatar
Since: Mar 2012
Posts: 186
Thanks Baud. Some serious stuff to think about there.

Just to clarify i wan't classing my bb as money i'd put in the pot. I was just scaling it in relation to it cheapening the call. Just like buying clothes. If you're not sure what you're buying then the 1 pair of jeans for $15 2 for $25 doesn't really matter. but if you already have 1 pair of jeans then the offer becomes attractive.

So normally i wouldn't have played the hand unless possibly stealing from lp or limping behind a couple callers but because it was 200 insteady of 400 with my bb already being in there it was attractive to me.

Maybe this is still wrong and i'll be wary of it in future.

I definitely need to look at my hand planning more. I'm more of a reactive player atm and that's possbly why i get stuck in some tight spots too often.

I've got the night off work due to a cold so after the tournament (still going ) i think i'm gonna find a lesson on equity and get it learned. Seems a rather important thing to get down.

Thanks for your feedback it's given me a lot to look at.
 
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Mon May 05, 2014, 05:30 PM
(#7)
baud2death's Avatar
Since: Nov 2012
Posts: 1,249
BronzeStar
Quote:
Originally Posted by thephoenix11 View Post
Thanks Baud. Some serious stuff to think about there.

Just to clarify i wan't classing my bb as money i'd put in the pot. I was just scaling it in relation to it cheapening the call. Just like buying clothes. If you're not sure what you're buying then the 1 pair of jeans for $15 2 for $25 doesn't really matter. but if you already have 1 pair of jeans then the offer becomes attractive.
I don't quite get the analogy. As long as you are considering blinds dead money you will be fine.
Its those that protect them with weak hands that get stuck. They will call with Ax and then fold to a c-bet when no ace comes. Players that call steals to their blinds are usually the ones that limp a lot, they just want to see a cheap flop and don't understand that the odds are against them hitting something and without a decent plan they are wasting their money most of the time because if they do hit, they wont get paid and if they dont hit they can justify staying in.


Quote:
Originally Posted by thephoenix11 View Post
So normally i wouldn't have played the hand unless possibly stealing from lp or limping behind a couple callers but because it was 200 insteady of 400 with my bb already being in there it was attractive to me.
Now that seems to make me think you are protecting your blinds again.
It was 200 to you, not "instead of 400" - it was just 200 to you. Yes, the pot odds helped you but it would be the same as if you raised.

If the pot is 500 and you bet 500, your opponent raises 1000.
The pot is 2000 now. You should not consider any money already entered into this pot as justification to get involved further... that is dead money, it doesn't belong to you anymore.

The only decision in front of you is if you can call the bet in front of you.

Newer players will justify calls based on winning back money they have already put in.
This doesn't just apply to the hand, they will think this in their bankroll management and when they downswing they will deposit more or player higher stakes to win back the money they lost.

Good money after bad it is called

Just make sure that when you make a decision to bet it is based on the odds you are being given against the cost to call, completely ignore every other chip you have put in, they are lost and whilst you want them back, your goal should be to win the pot based on the merits of your equity rather than a commitment to get it all back at whatever cost.

This is the same reason why fish call with weak cards the more they have put in, they see it as money that is theirs and they want it back.. the only way they can do that is to stay in the hand and try and win it, this thinking makes them draw to cards they likely wont catch and call bets they are behind with.

This is the behavour we want to illicit in our opponents but not follow ourselves.

Quote:
Originally Posted by thephoenix11 View Post
Maybe this is still wrong and i'll be wary of it in future.

I definitely need to look at my hand planning more. I'm more of a reactive player atm and that's possbly why i get stuck in some tight spots too often.

I've got the night off work due to a cold so after the tournament (still going ) i think i'm gonna find a lesson on equity and get it learned. Seems a rather important thing to get down.

Thanks for your feedback it's given me a lot to look at.
Search youtube for gripsed... lots of good videos there.

I don't have all the answers mind you, but the best lesson i could offer is to plan more, planning with flawed tactics is better than no planning at all. At least if you plan badly, you can improve the "badly" part but if you don't plan at all, it won't matter if you play well or badly, it wont be consistent and ultimately will slip.
 
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Mon May 05, 2014, 05:53 PM
(#8)
JWK24's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 24,793
(Super-Moderator)
BronzeStar
On the turn, I'm going to check/raise (and raise by 1/2 pot). Then I'm leading 1/2 pot on the river.

Just calling too small of bets here is what did cost yourself value. Bets postflop need to be sized based on the size of the pot, number of opps and board texture and with one opp in the hand, a standard sizing is 1/2 pot.

John (JWK24)


Super-Moderator



6 Time Bracelet Winner


 
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Mon May 05, 2014, 06:10 PM
(#9)
thephoenix11's Avatar
Since: Mar 2012
Posts: 186
Thanks guys I'm learning a lot here.

I know to discount money i've already commited when considering any bet to make or bet faced although i am guilty of not doing so on occasion. It is something i need to mentally work on. Sometimes it's hard when you have 1/3 of your stack in the middle with a draw that your not getting the right odds to but it's something for me to overcome.

Will check out those vids. still in prem game so focusing on that. (kinda).

Gotta lot to learn once tourney is over.

TYVM it's much appreciated.
 

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