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Was this stupid or did i get it right?

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Was this stupid or did i get it right? - Mon May 05, 2014, 05:17 PM
(#1)
thephoenix11's Avatar
Since: Mar 2012
Posts: 186
Ok now i didn't realise we we're 30 from the money but i was wandering if this was a stupid move given the action or given my stack size. Avg is just above 14k. it was the correct play.



Tournament is the $0.27 mtt with 3,402 runners.
 
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Mon May 05, 2014, 05:50 PM
(#2)
baud2death's Avatar
Since: Nov 2012
Posts: 1,249
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I am always of the mind-set that ITM is not valuable, FT finishes are valuable.

ITM is the consolation prize and who wants to aim for that?

Not sure how you got this short, but no matter what even before i know who is betting or where or how, i am shoving JJ regardless of if it is 9 people involved!

When you get to below 10BB, you are relying more and more on luck.
When you get to below 5BB, luck is all you have and you should be shoving ATCs when you have an open spot and when closed liked this, a broadway pair is automatic!
 
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Mon May 05, 2014, 06:06 PM
(#3)
JWK24's Avatar
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The key question for this is... how have the opps been playing?

If they were loose, then I'm shipping it in here every time.

The one exception would be if the opp is playing extremely tight, where they'd have an overpair or AK. This is the only situation that I'm folding.

John (JWK24)


Super-Moderator



6 Time Bracelet Winner


 
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Mon May 05, 2014, 06:16 PM
(#4)
thephoenix11's Avatar
Since: Mar 2012
Posts: 186
If i'm completely honest here, this tourney was pretty much background. I am playing the prem game and have been doing well. Still in it up to now. I was playing this tourney pretty out of the book. Didn't get many cards, and was rushing all my decisions to refocus on other tourney.

When i seen the JJ and the bet and call i just felt i needed chips. But after the hand wasn't sure if i'd made right play.

tbh when i enter any tourney (outside of the prem where points are involved) i kinda play in 2 stages weather i'm running short, avg or deep stacked. 1st stage is make the money, so pick spots wisely if i'm short stacked, stack maintenence if i'm avg, and slightly aggresive but wary of bleeding if i'm deep. Once the money is reached unless i'm short stacked where i normally try to ladder up best i can then it's gloves off and fight for final table time.

Guess this is wrong and something else i need to change.

Thanks guys.
 
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Mon May 05, 2014, 07:20 PM
(#5)
baud2death's Avatar
Since: Nov 2012
Posts: 1,249
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thephoenix11 View Post
If i'm completely honest here, this tourney was pretty much background. I am playing the prem game and have been doing well. Still in it up to now. I was playing this tourney pretty out of the book. Didn't get many cards, and was rushing all my decisions to refocus on other tourney.

When i seen the JJ and the bet and call i just felt i needed chips. But after the hand wasn't sure if i'd made right play.

tbh when i enter any tourney (outside of the prem where points are involved) i kinda play in 2 stages weather i'm running short, avg or deep stacked. 1st stage is make the money, so pick spots wisely if i'm short stacked, stack maintenence if i'm avg, and slightly aggresive but wary of bleeding if i'm deep. Once the money is reached unless i'm short stacked where i normally try to ladder up best i can then it's gloves off and fight for final table time.

Guess this is wrong and something else i need to change.

Thanks guys.
Its not wrong... no tactic is every wrong, its only wrong if it doesnt work.

A lot of people play differently upto during and after the bubble.
Some passive, some aggressive.

I think it comes down to the risk/reward these players have for the game.
I played a $11 Sunday Storm and at the time this was scared money for me... i was counting down the bubble and was glorified when i made it. It didn't make me play any better/worse other than to exploit anyone who was bubble feared, just that it made me aware of how i thought about it, in that spot, in an important event.

If you are grinding 100s of SNGs, you wont care for the bubble
If you take a shot with 50% of your bankroll in an MTT, the lobby is your second screen and your counting the bubble down quite badly.

So it depends on your approach, do what works but personally for me, i know i am doing well in a game when i see the "we are hand for hand" and i didn't even notice the bubble was coming!
 
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Mon May 05, 2014, 07:30 PM
(#6)
ArtySmokesPS's Avatar
Since: Oct 2011
Posts: 7,362
Quote:
Originally Posted by baud2death View Post
If you are grinding 100s of SNGs, you wont care for the bubble
I take issue with this comment, especially when I take it out of context like this.

Playing the bubble correctly is crucial to success in all kinds of tournaments. In SnGs especially, the bubble is incredibly important. Sometimes, it's +EV to fold very big hands, because you make more money in the long run by letting other players bust before you. Although a mincash is not the aim, a mincash is better than no cash.

All that said, in the hand posted, I'm always getting it in there with jacks, unless it's the direct bubble and I am guaranteed to make money by folding. The reason comes down to ICM math. When you're very short-stacked, doubling or tripling up won't greatly improve your chances of going deep, so taking "flips" is a good way to burn money. i.e. it's high risk, low reward. If folding guarantees you make money, (as it eliminates any risk of losing your tourney life), then folding is the best play.


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Mon May 05, 2014, 07:49 PM
(#7)
thephoenix11's Avatar
Since: Mar 2012
Posts: 186
I suppose it can't be wrong to aim for a cash but what i think i mean is i place too high a value on making the cash to the point that i possibly cost myself a lot of chances of a deeper finish in favour of scraping through.

I'm doing some soul searching tonight and something i've realised is that making the cash seems to matter more to me than making a big stack in order to make a final table.

for instance in my prem league game my desire to garner that one extra spot and that one extra league point quite possibly cost me a final table chance.

We we're down to 14 i think. we're 7 players and i'm utg+1 looking at A10o. I'm less than 10 bb so just hanging on. Instead of shoving to pick up the blinds or get it in with a good hand, my desire to scrape that extra place had me folding the hand. As a result i ended up with 1.5 bb shoving with Q4s and suitably getting called and beat. Had i have played the earlier hand, sure i could have been called and got beat, but i would have at least gave myself a better chance of making the final table and building my stack.

So yes it's not altogether wrong to aim for cashing but i need to shift my focus slightly more to the stack building side and open myself up to more risk. Maybe once i can do that i may just take my game to the next level.
 
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Mon May 05, 2014, 07:56 PM
(#8)
ArtySmokesPS's Avatar
Since: Oct 2011
Posts: 7,362
The thing is, you have to constantly weigh up the pros and cons of each play. That's why it's a huge mistake to "ignore" the bubble. If your ROI is best served by creeping into the money in a particular event, then folding becomes crucial. If you find a spot where either your hand is strong enough, or you expect villains to fold pretty often (allowing you to add say 20% to your stack via a blind steal) then being aggressive has more merit. It's all to do with probabilities and expected values.
If playing a hand is likely to increase your share of your the prize pool (i.e. add to your profit), then you should play it. If it's really close, then folding is often best. You can often benefit from other plays making HUGE mistakes at bubble time; stacking off in flips where they had no need to, so let them make those mistakes. (I've cashed in some SnGs where I had 100 chips in 5th place, and had practically given up, only to see players get 40bb in with TT and AJ and go busto).
Obviously, you can't be too risk averse, or you'll never go deep, but with experience you learn which situations are the ones where you should be aggressive, and which you should avoid.


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Tue May 06, 2014, 01:12 AM
(#9)
baud2death's Avatar
Since: Nov 2012
Posts: 1,249
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ArtySmokesPS View Post
The thing is, you have to constantly weigh up the pros and cons of each play. That's why it's a huge mistake to "ignore" the bubble. If your ROI is best served by creeping into the money in a particular event, then folding becomes crucial. If you find a spot where either your hand is strong enough, or you expect villains to fold pretty often (allowing you to add say 20% to your stack via a blind steal) then being aggressive has more merit. It's all to do with probabilities and expected values.
If playing a hand is likely to increase your share of your the prize pool (i.e. add to your profit), then you should play it. If it's really close, then folding is often best. You can often benefit from other plays making HUGE mistakes at bubble time; stacking off in flips where they had no need to, so let them make those mistakes. (I've cashed in some SnGs where I had 100 chips in 5th place, and had practically given up, only to see players get 40bb in with TT and AJ and go busto).
Obviously, you can't be too risk averse, or you'll never go deep, but with experience you learn which situations are the ones where you should be aggressive, and which you should avoid.
You will find that there isn't a hard and fast rule for this and it comes down to your playing style.

Now, I am no tournament expert, I mostly play Sit & Go's with some MTTs thrown in however I have over 2000 of them under my belt.

I personally prefer the line of not going for the bubble... i aim for the top 3 spots and i don't look back.

I have been in spots where I had 1BB, chipped up and won it. Any Two Cards sounds reckless but it isn't as reckless as you think. If it is open and you have 1/2 opponents, you will have little/no fold equity but sometimes you will still get folds. Sometimes you will get called by anything and be surprised when your hand holds up (like their 55 vs your T7 and you hit one of your pairs).

The larger the field, the more creeping into the money seems viable since there are massive numbers of tables and you are losing players by the second, so there is credit in what is being said and this compares less with a Sit & Go where hand for hand often comes down to 2 tables and which shorty will go first.

I have even played at the bubble passivly before, its not fun and when you spend 3 hours playing just to get your buyin back, what benefit is that?

Playing this way puts you in a passive state of mind and you will find that it leaks into your other thinking. You are less willing to 3-bet the UTG loose player who never has a hand because you are worried "this time" he has Aces. You never want to call shoves unless you have the nuts... overall it promotes a nitty mentality in my opinion and one that isn't open to taking risks in the right spots since that player is selling himself on the idea that no spots are right.

Its your choice and many will advocate both arguments.. my answers are based on experience in playing both sides of the coin and finding a lot more +EV to not waiting on the bubble.
 
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Tue May 06, 2014, 01:15 AM
(#10)
thephoenix11's Avatar
Since: Mar 2012
Posts: 186
I'm not saying that i "ignore" the bubble i'm just saying i'm far too aware of it. after an hour i have the lobby open and i'm counting the players down. Depending on my stack size at the time then i'm usually letting a lot of good spots go in favour of making sure i cash.

Example 3k players, 800 paid, 900 remaining. assuming i have avg stack i'll get AQs in lp, make the standard raise and get 1 caller in the blinds. if i don't flop really strong, 2 pair or better, then i'll give up and check it down in favour of keeping the pot small rather than make the c-bet or semi bluff, or strong play a draw. I fully believe that whilst i'm making a profit by making regular shallow cashes, i'm also throwing away opportinities of deep runs for no other reason than securing the min cash.

I think as a test, for the next week or so i'm gonna play all cash tourney's and stt's with no lobbies, no checking where the player count is and jst play as if it's a never ending cash game. Who knows i might jst prove myself right and make a deep finish or two, or i might prove myself wrong and not cash in any. I hope it's better to test these kinds of things now whilst i'm at small stakes than later.

If i'm right then i'm changing my mindset and approach for the better but if i'm wrong, then it's an experiment that hasn't cost me too much and i can have another look for where the problem may lie.
 
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Tue May 06, 2014, 01:52 AM
(#11)
baud2death's Avatar
Since: Nov 2012
Posts: 1,249
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I find bubble fear can be a self fulfilling prophecy

Take what you need from these two different views and figure out the best plan for yourself


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Tue May 06, 2014, 03:54 AM
(#12)
thephoenix11's Avatar
Since: Mar 2012
Posts: 186
I think both lines of thought are correct if i'm honest but the balance has to be right. You have to play every tournament to win but being wary of where the bubble is can gain you a few extra $'s if it stops you taking an extra risk.
My problem i think overall is the balance. At the moment it's sided way too heavy towards beating the bubble and as a result i let chances to substantially build my stack pass me by.
I think if i ignore the bubble, just for a little while, then i might find some better results by concentrating on stack building rather than stack preservation and if i can get that balance more centralised then i may find the nxt gear i'm longing for.
A 7 day trial at cheap stakes and if it doesn't work out then try something else.
 
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Tue May 06, 2014, 09:09 AM
(#13)
awmm83's Avatar
Since: May 2013
Posts: 142
This is my 2 chips worth. Your M score is 2 . The tactic here is to shove/call any 2 cards from the BB.
Your tournament is not going so well with an M of 2.You have no fold equity. The risk /reward from calling any 2 from the BB is extremely sensible. And the times you win , what with all those blinds and antes, will completely alter your tournament chances.

Regarding being 30 from the money. Min cashing is never the goal. Bursting the bubble is so so. We want big cashes. The final table is a different matter because of the massive difference between prize money , of course.

Last edited by awmm83; Tue May 06, 2014 at 09:28 AM..
 
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Tue May 06, 2014, 09:33 AM
(#14)
awmm83's Avatar
Since: May 2013
Posts: 142
Quote:
Originally Posted by baud2death View Post
Its not wrong... no tactic is every wrong, its only wrong if it doesnt work.

A lot of people play differently upto during and after the bubble.
Some passive, some aggressive.

I think it comes down to the risk/reward these players have for the game.
I played a $11 Sunday Storm and at the time this was scared money for me... i was counting down the bubble and was glorified when i made it. It didn't make me play any better/worse other than to exploit anyone who was bubble feared, just that it made me aware of how i thought about it, in that spot, in an important event.

If you are grinding 100s of SNGs, you wont care for the bubble
If you take a shot with 50% of your bankroll in an MTT, the lobby is your second screen and your counting the bubble down quite badly.

So it depends on your approach, do what works but personally for me, i know i am doing well in a game when i see the "we are hand for hand" and i didn't even notice the bubble was coming!

50% of bankroll in 1 tournament? You're nuts
 
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Tue May 06, 2014, 09:41 AM
(#15)
baud2death's Avatar
Since: Nov 2012
Posts: 1,249
BronzeStar
lol, not saying i would but plenty might... you would be mega-scared money

I accidently reg'ed about 1/4 of my bankroll in a SNG and played so carefuly to actually win it, lol
 
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Tue May 06, 2014, 09:56 AM
(#16)
awmm83's Avatar
Since: May 2013
Posts: 142
Lol . My biggest error was using hotkeys and accidentally shoving a 300 bb stack ( 6 max zoom cash game) with trash and ran into KK. The villain was deep stacked too .Maybe his call was loose but my pockets were a lot looser? Mega Tilt for a while ater that

Hotkeys are now banned!

Last edited by awmm83; Tue May 06, 2014 at 10:44 AM..
 
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Tue May 06, 2014, 01:11 PM
(#17)
ArtySmokesPS's Avatar
Since: Oct 2011
Posts: 7,362
Quote:
Originally Posted by baud2death View Post
You will find that there isn't a hard and fast rule for this and it comes down to your playing style.

Now, I am no tournament expert, I mostly play Sit & Go's with some MTTs thrown in however I have over 2000 of them under my belt.

I personally prefer the line of not going for the bubble... i aim for the top 3 spots and i don't look back.
FWIW, I'm usually very aggressive on the bubble in SnGs and MTTs, but it really depends on the situation. If I'm a medium stack, and it seems like the shorties are trying to cling on for dear life, I will keep stealing their blinds. However, in that same situation, I will avoid getting into a battle with a bigger stack (unless I have a big hand), because the risk of going busto outweighs the potential reward of a double-up.
Similarly, if there are two bigger stacks that decide to fight it out, I am happy to take a back seat, since I will benefit from one of them losing chips. (Every time someone busts out, you gain ICM equity in the tourney even if you folded pre-flop).

You have to be aware of the bubble situation in order to choose the best way to play it. Sometimes, you should completely abuse the situation and raise ATC to keep putting pressure on other medium/short stacks. At other times, you should fold almost every hand, in order to safely ladder up. Making money in poker depends on your ability to adapt to circumstances. Going all in with your last 5bb on the bubble could be a massive error if there are a couple of even shorter stacks, but could be totally standard if you have no chance of folding your way to a cash.
In short, the aim is obviously to maximise your profit, but sometimes (the majority of the time) you'll do it by raising, and other times you'll do it by folding.


Bracelet Winner
 
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Tue May 06, 2014, 01:58 PM
(#18)
awmm83's Avatar
Since: May 2013
Posts: 142
I think that unless you're surrounded by stations you should be the most aggressive player on the table at the bubble. You will bubble more than not so accept this and go for the dead money.

In fact , as soon as the antes kick in , i think aggression is king in tournament poker. I like Gus Hansen saying something like, '' When the antes come into play , the Tag dies.''

As soon as I hit 10 BB or an M of 7 ,providing the BB hasn't got me covered by a mile. i'm shoving my SB 100% .
As soon as my M is 7 and antes are in play, i'm using Lee Nelson's scoring system to shove.Obviously this can be tweaked depending on image, but, in general , i'm biting the bullet and shoving!

Of course if this was a mega million $$ tournament that i'd won a satellite for and a min cash is worth a small fortune i may play differently.

When you bust, you can always check SitNgo wizard . See if you did the right thing. You'll still have bubbled but at least you don't feel so idiotic
 
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Wed May 07, 2014, 03:49 AM
(#19)
thephoenix11's Avatar
Since: Mar 2012
Posts: 186
Quote:
Originally Posted by awmm83 View Post
Your M score is 2 .
What is this please.

Still picking up the poker lingo a bit.
 
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Wed May 07, 2014, 03:52 AM
(#20)
thephoenix11's Avatar
Since: Mar 2012
Posts: 186
Quote:
Originally Posted by ArtySmokesPS View Post
ICM equity
Could someone explain this to me please. I've seen it discussed at final tables before but never understood what it means.
 

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