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10NL 6max zoom, toppair on low board

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10NL 6max zoom, toppair on low board - Mon May 05, 2014, 05:48 PM
(#1)
rkleefstra's Avatar
Since: Feb 2013
Posts: 2,328


I think preflop and cbet are standaard.
Calling his raise is .... close but oke?
Check turn is ...

And how to react now?
 
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Mon May 05, 2014, 06:10 PM
(#2)
Paddy Gar's Avatar
Since: Apr 2010
Posts: 439
Got any info on the guy?

With no info i'm calling flop, and folding to a big barrel on the turn. The c/raise doesnt make much sense tbh. If he flats A5s then you'd expect villain to c/raise turn. You have a blocker to pocket tens so that's 1 combo left. He might be the type to play JJ/QQ like this.

If he is goofing around with some random pp or junk, i'd expect a check on the turn because we look really strong having raised utg and b/called a dry flop.
 
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Mon May 05, 2014, 06:29 PM
(#3)
rkleefstra's Avatar
Since: Feb 2013
Posts: 2,328
No, no info. I had just 11 hands on him and he played 20/10/0 so far but that's not saying much.
 
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Mon May 05, 2014, 06:38 PM
(#4)
dirt eh's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 1,274
Most of the time I would XC ott, XF river. I also think that XFing the turn is a very good option and is probably the best option tbh.
 
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Mon May 05, 2014, 06:56 PM
(#5)
baud2death's Avatar
Since: Nov 2012
Posts: 1,249
BronzeStar
JT for a raise UTG is bold.. I take it this is a play you are familiar with and know how to handle those cards, otherwise its a fold.

flop is standard, im calling the raise here only if i plan to continue aggressing on the turn as he could just be pushing me off my c-bet.

You checked the turn? ouch - as i said, im only calling the raise if i plan to continue being the aggressor, otherwise I am paying to draw and since i am drawing for single cards (rather than a straight/flush) its a weak draw. After you check the turn, I am hoping you did so because you realized you made a bad mistake calling the flop bet and intend to check/fold the turn.

I can't see what you did from the replayer, did you fold?

You had the lead preflop and he took the lead away from you on the turn, there is no way you can continue effectivly, especially with such limited equity.

I put your opponent on a 5, a better 10, JJ-AA. Now he could have a weaker holding but I am putting him on those cards because he is screaming "I HAVE YOU BEAT" and you can either walk away right there or play calling station waiting to find out.

That specific card range is good to raise with if you know what you are doing.
Your dream flop is a straight/flush or two pair/set (and draws to the Straight/Flush)

If you flop top pair, your kicker is weak and you can only really continue if you have pot control and can keep the pot small. Your opponent isn't letting you do that so a pair is not strong enough to showdown here.

My advice would have been to walk away, pick a different battle and also review your range since (without being too harsh) if you are getting yourself in spots where you can have the lead taken away from you after 1 street, you are wasting money for every street you don't fold.

I don't mind the preflop JTs raise, its OK but the aggression needs to continue, insta fold or remove the play from your range.

It is ok there to check/fold and put the brakes on. A fold is not weakness unless you are doing the start/stop play a lot. Sometimes its a pair of 99s and the Ts stop you. Sometimes its AJ-AK and no hit, no play. Let your opponent take the easy win because when you do have a better hand, you can check/raise them.

If you find yourself getting stuck like this often (top pair folding to a strong raise) then you might be c-betting too often. If i spot someone c-betting a lot, especially nitty players, i will float them even if i have rags, sometimes even raise-float. The second they check the turn, i bet again and i get a fold, its so predicatable in that spot they are playing their hands face up to me.

Should i do the same and they come out betting or check-raise me, i can give it up but the play is +EV because most nitty players at lowish levels c-bet automatically and check/fold to strong action.
 
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Tue May 06, 2014, 04:01 AM
(#6)
rkleefstra's Avatar
Since: Feb 2013
Posts: 2,328
@baud2death, nice wall of text. appriciate it.

JTs is, althought bottom of my range, a standaard open for me.
I called the raise because it could just be a try to push me off my c-bet and now I could see the turn and re-evaluate. Turn didn't help so I checked to see what he did. I might have call a small bet, but 70% pot was an easy fold for me.

I also put him on a better 10, A5, TT+. Hitting toppair on this board is certainly not what I'm hoping for with this hand.

I would certainly keep up the aggression if I would have hit smt OTT like a J, a 10, a heart, or an ace which I can can rep, but I don't think of me as being the aggresor on the turn anymore. He took initiative OTF by that raise, isn't it.

Anyway, I folded the hand
 
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Tue May 06, 2014, 04:11 AM
(#7)
baud2death's Avatar
Since: Nov 2012
Posts: 1,249
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rkleefstra View Post
@baud2death, nice wall of text. appriciate it.

JTs is, althought bottom of my range, a standaard open for me.
I called the raise because it could just be a try to push me off my c-bet and now I could see the turn and re-evaluate. Turn didn't help so I checked to see what he did. I might have call a small bet, but 70% pot was an easy fold for me.

I also put him on a better 10, A5, TT+. Hitting toppair on this board is certainly not what I'm hoping for with this hand.

I would certainly keep up the aggression if I would have hit smt OTT like a J, a 10, a heart, or an ace which I can can rep, but I don't think of me as being the aggresor on the turn anymore. He took initiative OTF by that raise, isn't it.

Anyway, I folded the hand
Totally get carried away with these posts sometimes
Less is more.. Less is more!

I like your thinking but for me if i am calling the raise, i have to auto-bet the turn, otherwise i wont call the raise.

If you bet the turn and have to fold then so be it.

You might think that is a bit reckless but any time you bet/call and then check, you are telling your opponent you are giving up and regardless of his cards, all he needs to do is bet to win the chips. It is more reckless to call the flop raise and NOT fire at the turn than to take action.

For me, I probably wouldn't call the raise because I don't think there is enough out there that can improve my hand and I don't think i can keep up my aggression vs the opponent. If he had called as a float thats one thing but a raise is very strong and given the choice of playing calling station or spewing by trying to re-take the lead, ill just fold.
 
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Tue May 06, 2014, 10:58 AM
(#8)
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,510
(Head Trainer)
Hi all,

These spots are tricky to navigate without reads on the opponent.

The preflop open is fine imo, if JTs is at the bottom of your opening range. Something has to be the bottom after all. If you scrollbar an equity calculator JTs comes into the mix around 11.5%, that's not unreasonable at all for UTG.

On the flop, I would sometimes bet, and sometimes check, depending on the opponent. Without reads here I think betting is better, as we will get called by a lot of worse 1 pair pockets that hope we have AK, and floated some as well. It's doubtful we can get 3 streets of value from worse hands, so we should plan to check somewhere, but I would lean towards making it on the turn to allow him to bluff his floats and ensure he doesn't fold showdown value hands like 77 to a 2nd barrel (turn will go c/c, and he'll call the river generally with 77).

Being raised is real awkward readless. Is he going to raise A5 directly on the flop, or slow play until the turn? Is he going to overplay top pair hands like QT and raise them, or just call? If we feel like he will do these things, then we should just fold immediately imo. If we think as was stated, he's just pushing us around some reasonable % of the time, then I would call, and check/call the turn. I think when we are good the river will go check/check a lot, and when he's got us beat, he'll be making a big river value bet, so following this plan check/fold the river (unless the river bet is small) is fine.

@baud, I think calling the raise and then leading the turn is bad news... all hands in the "just pushing us around" category will simply fold, and all the better hands will at least call, so this line value owns us pretty bad imo. We give him action when we're beat, while at the same time forcing him to not give us any additional action when we're good.

@rk, I also think calling the raise planning to fold to a turn bet is bad news. If he's just pushing us (and we're good), the turn bet is probably coming, right? The place where he'll likely give up is the river after being called twice, because at that point he thinks we have top pair+ and won't fold. If we think he's prone to getting out of line, then call, check/call imo. If not, then fold directly as like baud said, when behind our outs are few.


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Tue May 06, 2014, 11:57 AM
(#9)
baud2death's Avatar
Since: Nov 2012
Posts: 1,249
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheLangolier View Post
@baud, I think calling the raise and then leading the turn is bad news... all hands in the "just pushing us around" category will simply fold, and all the better hands will at least call, so this line value owns us pretty bad imo. We give him action when we're beat, while at the same time forcing him to not give us any additional action when we're good.
I agree, I was really illustrating that unless we can do that, calling the flop raise isn't worth it.
My internal question here would be "if i call the raise, can i lead the turn?"
> I am only answering yes here if my hand is strong enough to do it
> If my hand isn't strong enough, I am only answering yes here if I feel my opponent has nothing and will fold to strong counter-action

Unless I have a strong read, I don't like the second option so since I can't lead the turn, I must fold to the raise.

I get what you are saying that if he is bluffing he will fold to the lead on the turn, the alternative would be to try and aim for a small pot but I think that with the aggression of our opponent that is unlikely to happen.

So in my head our only 2 real options with these cards
1) We try to represent a stronger hand and risk getting our legs cut out from under us
2) We fold on the flop

I don't see any option where our opponent is going to let us continue and we are risking folding after throwing money away on a future street.
 
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Tue May 06, 2014, 01:40 PM
(#10)
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,510
(Head Trainer)
I agree in thinking our hand is not strong enough to lead the turn, largely because that line will value own us pretty bad. Our hand is strong enough to bluff catch however, so calling the raise, and check/calling the turn works well if he's bluffing enough.

Since there's no draws for him to be semibluffing, he has to be pure bluffing. It's probably not happening to often. So the question for me becomes will he raise a 5 directly on the flop and not slow play? And will he overplay top pair hands and raise rather than call? If he does these things, then we can just fold. We are beating T9/T8 and pure bluffs, but losing to all the 5x and QT+ hands.


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Tue May 06, 2014, 02:43 PM
(#11)
Paddy Gar's Avatar
Since: Apr 2010
Posts: 439
So against an unknown we fold the flop?
 
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Tue May 06, 2014, 02:46 PM
(#12)
dirt eh's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 1,274
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paddy Gar View Post
So against an unknown we fold the flop?
Paddy... No. I would XF the turn. I don't think BF the flop is a good idea here.
 
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Tue May 06, 2014, 03:01 PM
(#13)
Paddy Gar's Avatar
Since: Apr 2010
Posts: 439
That's what i would tend to do dirt, i think Dave is saying otherwise above though. With no reads i guess we're assuming villain isn't messing around and has us beat? Adjust when we see otherwise?
 
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Tue May 06, 2014, 03:23 PM
(#14)
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,510
(Head Trainer)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paddy Gar View Post
That's what i would tend to do dirt, i think Dave is saying otherwise above though. With no reads i guess we're assuming villain isn't messing around and has us beat? Adjust when we see otherwise?
I am saying otherwise, calling the raise to check/fold turn I think is worse than folding directly on the flop... I just feel like he is going to fire the turn with his whole raising range. If he checks behind us at all it's likely with better tens like KT, so it doesn't help us much. Bluffs will typically bet again I think.

Vs. unknowns I tend to call the raise, check/call turn. It's quite possible this is too sticky and is going to cost us money at 10nl, idk.


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Tue May 06, 2014, 04:28 PM
(#15)
awmm83's Avatar
Since: May 2013
Posts: 142
In 6 max you can open up 98s+ UTG. JTs is actually not bad. 2 BW's and they're suited connectors. Very strong range for big pots. Just like opening 22+ UTG. Big pot hands with good preflop and postflop equity.

This hand is an example of why i open for 3.5 UTG and MP. With a higher bet preflop, this hand might never have happened.
 
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Wed May 07, 2014, 04:08 AM
(#16)
rkleefstra's Avatar
Since: Feb 2013
Posts: 2,328
Nice discussion, guys. Thanks. I didn't realise it was such an interesting hand

Funny to see that everybody agrees my play is the worst option but nobody agrees what is the best. But I know that is often the case, poker isn't science, there is not 1 correct answer.

Calling raise and lead turn is prob not yet in my arsenal so I guess I should fold the raise
 
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Wed May 07, 2014, 04:20 AM
(#17)
baud2death's Avatar
Since: Nov 2012
Posts: 1,249
BronzeStar
Quote:
Originally Posted by rkleefstra View Post
Nice discussion, guys. Thanks. I didn't realise it was such an interesting hand

Funny to see that everybody agrees my play is the worst option but nobody agrees what is the best. But I know that is often the case, poker isn't science, there is not 1 correct answer.

Calling raise and lead turn is prob not yet in my arsenal so I guess I should fold the raise
You hit the nail on the head pretty much
You will get differing opinions on what the best plan is because so many tactics can be applied.
It isn't an automatic slam-dunk thats why.

My best piece of advice to anyone in a hand is that if you don't feel like you know what to do, fold.
This means you can focus on the spots where you do know what to do.

Eventually spots like this will become 2nd nature and you will instantly know what to do, but why risk getting into a spot where you are stuck and could make a rash decision or just decide on impulse, just fold.

I would however say that if you find yourself in similar spots over and over again and are either getting stuck or forcing yourself to fold later than you should, the problem is more likely earlier in the hand (most likely preflop). Perhaps this hand range is too loose for your playstyle? Who knows but I personally know that when i first started learning decent poker, i opened Ax far too much and was convinced that it was just bad luck when my opponents out kicked me. My problems were calling bets on the turn instead of folding the flop I would say.

When in reality my leak was the preflop.
 

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