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pp raise, c-bet,check check. unsure.

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pp raise, c-bet,check check. unsure. - Tue May 06, 2014, 02:24 AM
(#1)
thephoenix11's Avatar
Since: Mar 2012
Posts: 186
Unsure on this one. I think it was a little loose with the preflop raise but post-flop. 50/50 on weather i played it correct. feedback appreciated.

 
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Tue May 06, 2014, 03:04 AM
(#2)
baud2death's Avatar
Since: Nov 2012
Posts: 1,249
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One thing your raise did was isolate the range of your opponents.
I am quite likely to be against an Ace here. I don't dislike the c-bet, you have position here which is good.

I like the check on the turn. You should be looking to play for what is in the middle now, you don't want to put any more in there because odds are you are beat, but if you can see a cheap showdown you might be ahead.

I am surprised your opponent didn't bet the turn or the river, he had two pair which is a monster for trapping all types of AK hands, its quite possible you had that there so him slowing down made no sense.

You were looking to play a small pot, your opponent was as well but I don't think he should have been.

Playing it right comes down to how you would have handled being bet.
I think you have too little behind to be calling your underpair and check/fold would be the line I would follow
 
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Tue May 06, 2014, 03:23 AM
(#3)
thephoenix11's Avatar
Since: Mar 2012
Posts: 186
So i actually had a betting plan for this hand following on from comments made on another post.

Preflop i know i'm pretty loose so happy to fold to a re-raise.
Flop. with the A i'm folding to a bet or if checked the c-bet is to chase off weak flush draws or giving broadways a free ride. again i'm happy to fold to 3bet ranging him on mid pairs, broadways and mid to high mid A's.
turn and river i'm thinking i have to fold to any bet as he's called the c-bet with an a and flush draw on board so he's probaly got at least an A.

I was suprised myself that he checked it down. maybe he hoped i would try to steal the river but overall i was happy that after the flop call i wasn't putting another dime into the pop without an 8 popping up.
 
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Tue May 06, 2014, 03:58 AM
(#4)
baud2death's Avatar
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Posts: 1,249
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Well done
 
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Tue May 06, 2014, 04:07 AM
(#5)
thephoenix11's Avatar
Since: Mar 2012
Posts: 186
tnx
 
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Tue May 06, 2014, 11:38 AM
(#6)
JWK24's Avatar
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I totally disagree and I'm playing this one differently.

Preflop, since the stacks are deep enough to setmine (15X the bet in everyone's stacks), I'm calling behind the limp.

On the flop, if I want to bet since I'm in position, I'm going to make a standard value bet. Bets postflop need to be sized based on the size of the pot, number of opps and board texture. With one opp, I need to bet 1/2 pot, so I will bet 285... no more.. no less. Players that bet more with better hands and less with marginal ones are basically turning their cards face-up to an observant opponent... something that I need to avoid.

As played, the check on the turn makes no sense at all. If I want to represent an A here, I absolutely need to make a 1/2 pot bet. I can check behind on the river, but not on the turn.

Raising preflop, betting too big on the flop, then checking the turn does not follow a logical sequence and when a series of bets don't tell a consistent story... it's normally a bluff.. which is what the 88 has been turned into due to the flop overbet.

Hope this helps and good luck at the tables.

John (JWK24)


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Tue May 06, 2014, 11:46 AM
(#7)
awmm83's Avatar
Since: May 2013
Posts: 142
I agree with limping. At such an early stage , i'd want to see cheap pots and win with massive implied odds. The preflop pot is so small compared to stacks,the risk/reward by raising for folds is extremely negative. Loose passive preflop and then play poker postflop.

When your M drops to 20 , you should change gears, but until then, limping is very effective.

Last edited by awmm83; Tue May 06, 2014 at 11:51 AM..
 
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Tue May 06, 2014, 03:51 PM
(#8)
thephoenix11's Avatar
Since: Mar 2012
Posts: 186
OK so i know the pre-flop raise was a little loose as mentioned but i'm more focussed on the post-flop play.

You say the post flop bet should be based on pot size and opponents, well i did that. 1 Opp i went 2/3 pot. Is that wrong sizing? it's my standard from what i've learned in the school so far.

The turn check i'm not following you. I bet the flop to chase limping hands. When i see him call, mentally i'm putting him on an A rag minimum which means representing the A is a folls errand which is why i shut it down.

I think i saved myself some chips by having a plan for the hand and sticking to it but so that's an improvement on my usual "reactive" playing style now i jst need tips on the plan itself.

So preflop, loose yes but narrows opps range. Post flop, c-bet to continue betting lead and chase draws, call indicates minimum A rag. Turn, shut it down as A rag likely to call off and remaining draws likely to hang on for a hit.

That was the plan.
 
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Tue May 06, 2014, 03:58 PM
(#9)
JWK24's Avatar
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Here is a LINK to a blog that I wrote on post-flop bet sizes.

John (JWK24)


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6 Time Bracelet Winner


 
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Tue May 06, 2014, 05:11 PM
(#10)
awmm83's Avatar
Since: May 2013
Posts: 142
In tournament poker bets have to be measured in terms of the relativity of the bet size to stack size . Before it was folded to you , the pot was $150. Less than 10% of your stack. Now Phil Helmuth and co say that you shouldn't bother with the dead money until it is worth 15% of your entire stack. Not only that but you actually raise here to more than 10% of your stack. Have you heard of the 5-10 % rule? 5% being a call and 10% being a fold. You do not want to pay 10% of your stack chasing dragons. The comedy factor, ( Not to offend, I just see the humour in this.In poker we need a sense of humour ), here, is that you set the price.
Now on to Post flop.Have a look at the pot size compared to your stack. 25% . Tasty. Villain checks. Good. This villain ain't got an ace. This villain ain't got squat .Now is the time for lethal action. You want that dead money. Shove your stack in. Your Chip stack is a killer weapon and you're using it to maximum efficiency. Now, from this day onwards, that pot is yours!
 
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Tue May 06, 2014, 05:15 PM
(#11)
JWK24's Avatar
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this is WAY too many chips to shove. I want to shove when I'm pot-committed (1/3 of my remaining stack goes into the pot). If I shove more than this, I'll fold out the hands that I beat and only get called by hands that beat me, which is value-owning myself.. something that I need to avoid.

John (JWK24)


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Tue May 06, 2014, 05:23 PM
(#12)
awmm83's Avatar
Since: May 2013
Posts: 142
I know why you're cautious but i think that fold equity is a such a huge part of Tournament poker and 25%
of stack is defo worth fighting for. I think the damage was already done Preflop to be honest.
 
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Tue May 06, 2014, 05:30 PM
(#13)
JWK24's Avatar
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A standard bet is only 13.7% of my stack... it's way too much to shove.

John (JWK24)


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Tue May 06, 2014, 05:40 PM
(#14)
awmm83's Avatar
Since: May 2013
Posts: 142
I can't see the logic in wasting 13% of my stack having just blown 10% on the last street. In poker we cannot wait around for another opportunity to add 25% to our stack. If we are being slowplayed , then so be it. You are worried about busting out so early but so should your opponent and they've just checked.
By limping pre flop they have already shown their desire to stick around for a while. Take that pot down.
I mean , by raising so much preflop , we're already playing longball. Might as well follow it through.
 
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Wed May 07, 2014, 03:15 AM
(#15)
thephoenix11's Avatar
Since: Mar 2012
Posts: 186
Quote:
Originally Posted by JWK24 View Post
Here is a LINK to a blog that I wrote on post-flop bet sizes.

John (JWK24)
Good post and tnx. I do need to work on my bet sizing i tnk. I'll have to read it again though. got a cold so nothing sinking in atm

Tnx though.
 
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Wed May 07, 2014, 03:21 AM
(#16)
thephoenix11's Avatar
Since: Mar 2012
Posts: 186
Tnx for the comments guys. I need to find some material on bet sizing i tnk.

I'm trying to get my mechanical game a lot tighter before i start theorising on opps ways of playing and reading plays and stuff. I tnk my bet sizing is off, i'm not thinking about all that stack % stuff you guys are arguing about and i defo need to get the pot odds and draw odd chart nailed to the back of my skull. I lose so much time trying to recall the information.

I tnk if i can work solidly on that the nxt couple months and get the basic info nailed down then maybe i can keep track of what ur saying here some of it just goes swoooosh over my head :P.

Thanks guys great stuff.
 
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Sat May 10, 2014, 12:43 PM
(#17)
awmm83's Avatar
Since: May 2013
Posts: 142
If you want a fold, bet the minimum you think will do the job. If you want called bet about 2/3 to 3/4 pot flop. 2/3 turn.
On river 1/5 to 1/2. Leave pot size for 2 pair plus on a triple Broadway board in a multiway pot.
Always shove the nuts on river. Set sizes are actually harder to read. If you are consistent people will struggle to see patterns.

Sent from my HTC Rhyme S510b using Tapatalk 2
 
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Sat May 10, 2014, 12:46 PM
(#18)
awmm83's Avatar
Since: May 2013
Posts: 142
The big bluffs are high stakes . Shoving a scary board. Playing chicken with each other. So, don't worry about players spotting you always shove the nuts.

Sent from my HTC Rhyme S510b using Tapatalk 2
 
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Sun May 11, 2014, 03:31 AM
(#19)
thephoenix11's Avatar
Since: Mar 2012
Posts: 186
I'm working on it. tnx for the tips though. I got the print off of the odds and outs chart and it's my reading material for traveling to work. will get it nailed eventually.
Gonna be harder to play bluffs like real hands but i tnk once i get my br up so i'm out of nl2 and into nl5 it will be easier as atm i'm all to aware that i don't quite have a safe amount of buy-ins to get too loose or aggro and defo not too creative.
 
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Sun May 11, 2014, 06:12 AM
(#20)
awmm83's Avatar
Since: May 2013
Posts: 142
No problems. I put the CSI chart on another thread. Did you see it ? Odds and outs charts are helpful . I copy and paste stuff onto notepad so I have everything in one place.

Sent from my HTC Rhyme S510b using Tapatalk 2
 

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