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Dealing with aggressive/wreckless players on your left

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Dealing with aggressive/wreckless players on your left - Wed May 07, 2014, 04:49 AM
(#1)
thephoenix11's Avatar
Since: Mar 2012
Posts: 186
Hi all. In both cash and tournaments, sometimes i find myself with a big stack aggressor or wreckless player within a couple seats of my left.
Every raise is re-raised, or called and i know i'm in for a massive pot.
Sometimes it's jst an aggressive player and i end up either folding or calling off when they have it. Sometimes it's that wacky wreckless player who you know has nothing but somehow they always catch.
To deal with it till i learn more i just go super tight with my range knowing i need to be super strong to enter the pot.

I was wandering what you're thoughts are on dealing with these kinds of players and if i'm right to go super tight or maybe i should loosen up (to a point).

Also i was wandering, i know to raise ATC in the button regulaly for blind steals but is there a limit? and of course sometimes you meet the bb who defends all the time. If they defend ALL of the time should i call a couple re-raises and re-raise/bet flop a couple times? or if they jst call should i c-bet flop couple times?

Thanks in advance guys.
 
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Wed May 07, 2014, 05:48 AM
(#2)
baud2death's Avatar
Since: Nov 2012
Posts: 1,249
BronzeStar
I was planning on giving you advice on countering aggression but think that you might end up getting stuck because its very hard to judge without the right sense of opponents.

For these guys I would just stick to your strategy of playing tight against them, don't spew c-bets at them if you know they will push you off them and just wait for a decent hand.

You will know if you are playing against SMART or DUMB aggressive players.
Smart players will know you are playing super-tight and avoid your strong action
Dumb players will not care and carry on being aggressive with weak holdings

Avoid the smart ones, they can outplay you by only playing back at you when they can beat you
Pick your spots with the dumb ones as you can easily outplay their donkey bluffs

You don't have to be betting all the time as well, by betting you open the door to another bet so, say you are OOP and have an overpair, check rather than bet vs an aggressive opp. he gets 1 bet in rather than 2 bets on the flop. Then check/call to the river to see a showdown for 3 bets rather than risk a bloated pot.

The key to playing these opponents is to have position and control the pot.
If you have top pair, decent/top kicker then play for a small pot, be willing to take small bets from him (anything over 50%+ i'd avoid). If he bets the flop, call it but if he checks the turn, just check behind and then judge the river.

It is another mistake to assume a check on the turn is weakness when it could easily be pot control.
I have had top pair in position, felt that I wanted to play a small pot vs this aggressive opponent so he 50%s the flop and I call, he checks the turn and I check behind.. he now thinks that his middle pair bet on the flop is good because I checked the turn and will bet the river, i call and win.

You shouldn't be looking to win it all, just an acceptable amount for the hand you have.

The comment about stealing with ATC, i don't always agree with this.
The minimum I like to steal with are cards that are strong enough that I can flop well but not strong enough I can call. If you have T9s, thats a good hand to steal with because whilst you would have to fold it (just as you would with ATC) if raised, if you get called then you are in a better position to flop well than ATC would. You still might have to fold on the flop but you are improving your chances to continue.

EDIT : The exception to the above is if i have a read that an opponent is super-tight nit, i will raise ATC and fold to action, since he is folding more than calling/raising, i am +EV. VS a high VPIP player, i will raise tight because i am more likely to get called and VS a high aggresive player I will raise much tighter range because I want to be able to re-raise him and it hold up if he calls.

Also, if you are stealing with ATC, your opponents will notice and call you more often and float your c-bet to win easy pots from you.

I would recommend avoiding tactics like floats and counter raising based on your posts and approx skill level. I would focus more on knowing which opponents will fold to a c-bet and which will raise and adjust accordingly, don't steal more than once per orbit, don't steal with anything without some kind of chance of picking up workable equity and if you feel like you can't compete with aggressive players then avoid them.. there are 7 other players to focus on.

EDIT : Oh, and don't steal if you arent confident how your opponent will react to you and what your plan is if they call or raise

Last edited by baud2death; Wed May 07, 2014 at 05:58 AM..
 
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Wed May 07, 2014, 08:52 AM
(#3)
awmm83's Avatar
Since: May 2013
Posts: 142
Doyle Brunson said play the opposite of opponent. Tighten up considerably .
 
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Wed May 07, 2014, 09:28 AM
(#4)
baud2death's Avatar
Since: Nov 2012
Posts: 1,249
BronzeStar
Quote:
Originally Posted by awmm83 View Post
Doyle Brunson said play the opposite of opponent. Tighten up considerably .
Yeah, whenever i sit down with Doyle i just play AQ, he never will so its always going to be the opposite
 
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Wed May 07, 2014, 09:37 AM
(#5)
awmm83's Avatar
Since: May 2013
Posts: 142
He has that 10 2 o ready to win the day !
 
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Wed May 07, 2014, 11:53 AM
(#6)
JWK24's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 24,824
(Super-Moderator)
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Against an aggro player on your left, tighten up considerably and be aggressive back when you do play a hand. Let them win the small pots, then have them double you up.

Don't know where the ATC raise on the button comes from, but it's NOT true. This totally depends on who the two players are in the blinds and how they're playing. If both are total nits, then ATC can be correct, but against other opponent types, this is a major spew of chips.

John (JWK24)


Super-Moderator



6 Time Bracelet Winner


 
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Wed May 07, 2014, 12:05 PM
(#7)
awmm83's Avatar
Since: May 2013
Posts: 142
You need to be careful when stealing . Against the loosest range on Equilab , A7o is virtually a coinflip. The slightest difference in numbers can make an ocean of change.
 
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Wed May 07, 2014, 01:23 PM
(#8)
thephoenix11's Avatar
Since: Mar 2012
Posts: 186
tighten up for small pots and let him pay my monsters against agressive lefto's.

One expansion. If i've found myself at a table with Mr aggressive on my left, It has affected my betting style. E.g. instead of my normal 3x raises i'll plump for limps hoping for a cheaper flop. Is this right?, or when i have my raising range preflop should i be betting as normal?

And for the ATC stealing i know to be more careful now. I already based it on the player's typical reaction to raises, metal notes of call/re-raise frequency to any raise but wasn't sure if stealing every button was too much. I guess it's more for tournament play.

Thanks guys.
 
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Wed May 07, 2014, 04:40 PM
(#9)
awmm83's Avatar
Since: May 2013
Posts: 142
There is a major reason for stealing in cash games. When you are playing $10/ $20 SSNL ( Small stakes no limit) , 1 BB difference per 100 hands could make the difference between a tidy profit and a major loss.
When at the microstakes, blinds are just not that valuable. Stealing or not won't make too much of a difference to your bankroll.
In fact if you are not an excellent post flop player, you're probably losing money stealing blinds.

Last edited by awmm83; Wed May 07, 2014 at 04:49 PM..
 
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Wed May 07, 2014, 06:22 PM
(#10)
ArtySmokesPS's Avatar
Since: Oct 2011
Posts: 7,353
With a loose aggressive player on your left, you should do the opposite of what you'd do against a nit.

Against a nit, you should open wide (to steal), but fold if he plays back at you.
Against a LAG, you should open tighter, but continue more often against his 3-bets. It's pointless opening light against the LAG if he will 3-bet often and make you fold, so you need to play a range that is robust enough to continue against his 3-bets.

If thinking in numbers/ranges makes it easier, look at it this way:
Let's say your standard range for opening in a particular spot was 20% of hands, and you'd only continue with the top 5% (99+/AQ+) if you got 3-bet.
Against a nit, you might change your range so that you open 30% (more steals), but only continue with 2% (AK/QQ+) vs a 3-bet.
Against a LAG, you might choose to only open 15%, but continue with 88+/AJ+/KQs, which is 7%. i.e. Your continuance range does well against the LAG's 3-bet range.

You might even mix in some light 4-bets. After all, if the LAG is 3-betting light, then he will fold to 4-bets pretty often, so you can try 4-betting hands with blockers like ATs or A5s; which is something you'd rarely do against the nit, because when he 3-bets he has QQ+/AK and wants to play for stacks.


Bracelet Winner
 
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Wed May 07, 2014, 09:20 PM
(#11)
rivercity121's Avatar
Since: Oct 2012
Posts: 560
I'm sure most of you have seen it, but some advice from the pros on this topic:

http://www.pokerschoolonline.com/art...the-Poker-Pros

gl all
 
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how to deal to agressive - Wed May 07, 2014, 11:09 PM
(#12)
superthight's Avatar
Since: Nov 2012
Posts: 18
BronzeStar
ok.seems that we cant do something on agro.which i played and agro on a weak player.adjusting yur play to tight.its oke key to success is agro.to yur left.has hot hands.possible 20 hands connected on the board. pass it.after that make some 3 bets.using any ace kicker.controling the pot.now.agro.is starting weakens her.hand ..as reverse position.i ask u to play this method on playmoney first.for mastering.
 
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Wed May 07, 2014, 11:41 PM
(#13)
TrustySam's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 8,291
BronzeStar
Something that seemed like it worked quite well back when I was playing STTs, was studying the 'table captain' and try to spot tells? Like to the point where I could tell the difference between a bet for value (strong or weak) and a bluff, and how the villain would respond to calls/raises (if the villain was spewy, and not just running hot)?

Then it wouldn't be as important to have a hand that was super-strong - it only needed to be stronger than the villain's. And then there's other stuff, like their stack won't be so big, they might worry that you have a read on them (b/c you do! ), etc ... so there were like added benefits sometimes too?


Haven't done much of that studying other players to try and develop reads since switching to zoom though. Although Sandtrap's always mentioning doing that, so maybe that'd be something worth giving a try sometime - who wouldn't want a graph that looks more like Sandtrap's?

Anyways ...
 
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Thu May 08, 2014, 03:20 AM
(#14)
baud2death's Avatar
Since: Nov 2012
Posts: 1,249
BronzeStar
e Key to success is... (not)the forum screwing up your post by adding in random funky shortcuts
 
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Be confident. - Thu May 08, 2014, 04:07 AM
(#15)
iMaxxMonvoli's Avatar
Since: Jan 2012
Posts: 1
Be patient and watch for hand range. Don't be afraid to throw it back at them once you have a premium hand. Try not to get frustrated and think long term.
 

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