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Trips on the river.

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Trips on the river. - Wed May 07, 2014, 02:30 PM
(#1)
Klumn's Avatar
Since: Dec 2011
Posts: 31


I figured that my starting hand was too strong to fold pre flop but not strong enough to 3bet at this stage of the tourney. So I called the bet.

The flop gave me nothing and I hadn't shown any agro pre flop so I was happy to check and fold.

The turn gave me top pair so I decided I could bet for value.

After re-raise I had a think. This player was loose about 40/30. and had shown aggression post flop when I have played with him before. As he had limped and then called preflop I figured his raise could easily represent a queen with a weaker kicker. but wanting to keep the pot under control I just called.

The river brings another queen. I decided to check the river to let him bet his probable weaker queen then I shoved to get maximum value.

What do you think?
 
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Wed May 07, 2014, 03:05 PM
(#2)
baud2death's Avatar
Since: Nov 2012
Posts: 1,249
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PF : You are OOP, you need to flop well otherwise you could get stuck, a pair is not flopping well with your hand since your kickers are ok but can be outkicked. A strong hand would be 2 pair (although 2 pair could mean broadway for others), a flush or a straight
FP : Smart to check, good job
TN : Although a queen looks like it is worth betting, i would possibly check here. You have no idea what your opponents have and its quite obvious you like the queen, so if they are calling they think they can beat you and if they are raising they know they can. -- You get raised and now big warning bells should be going off. If you are calling here, what are you doing on the river OOP?
RV : You got a queen which was lucky.. time to get paid!

My summary : You didn't get a good flop, you got a pair on the turn but a pair there needs to play a small pot, if your opponent is looking for a big pot then he is representing more than a Queen, especially since he raised once you bet it. QJs should be avoidied without a solid plan and ditched if you all you have is a pair and are getting massive action. There are better hands and better spots.

Response to your notes :
You are right, it is a good hand the pre-flop, i dont hate a call there but it needs careful planning when you are OOP like that.

Good analysis of the flop, not a good spot to lead so just check/fold there

The turn is where you went wrong. Although a bet is not terrible, you need to bet knowing you should fold to a raise and thus, probably not bet. The problem I think is that you bet either not thinking what you would do if raised OR you didn't think you should have folded to a raise.

If you were in position and it was checked to you then you could bet knowing there is a lot less chance of being raised and if you are, its a check-raise and most likely a trap.

You have 0 information on your opponents and thats why QJs out of position sucks, you either need to flop superbly or you need to get away, perhaps see a showdown but only if the price is good.

I think your judgement of the raiser was flawed. Firstly it sounds like you have picked a specific hand that you can beat and put him on it. Because you have a Queen, him having a Queen with a weaker kicker makes a lot more sense than him having anything else.

Whilst I am not automatically thinking he is trapping you with a made hand from the flop, I also don't automatically go to Queen+weak kicker either.

You said that you called for pot control, i think you might misunderstand what pot control is. Pot control is about keeping the pot to the amount you want for your hand. If your hand is big, you want to bloat the pot but if it is small, you want to keep it low. Your opponent doesn't want to exercise pot control, he wants to bloat the pot which should suggest to you that he has a big hand.

Pot control is more when you have a hand you want to see to showdown and feel it can handle 2 bets but not 3, or 3 bets but not 4 so checking a street gives you that control or calling bets in position does. You reduce your risk for a hand that you feel has showdown value but you want to keep the price low.

If your opponent was betting into you and you wanted to call, that would be pot control.
If you are betting and your opponent is raising, calling that isn't pot control, its serving to bloat the pot.

On the river your check-raise is fine, if he is agro then you can be sure he will bet back at you, although you might have just been better betting small, since if he calls you still get value but he is just as likely to raise your bet as he is to raise your check.

By the way, the replayer doesnt show what your opponent had?
 
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Wed May 07, 2014, 03:28 PM
(#3)
Klumn's Avatar
Since: Dec 2011
Posts: 31
Quote:
Originally Posted by baud2death View Post
PF :
By the way, the replayer doesnt show what your opponent had?
I deliberately cut off the showdown in order to get an analysis that wasn't tempered by the result.

I'll give it a while to let anyone else comment but will revel my opponents hand later tonight.

Thank you for your brilliant analysis. This will help me in this spot in the future.

Klumn
 
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Wed May 07, 2014, 04:01 PM
(#4)
baud2death's Avatar
Since: Nov 2012
Posts: 1,249
BronzeStar
Good idea i prefer to make my analysis as i watch it street by street pausing as i go, as i too don't want to judge too early.

Really curious to see what he had hehe
 
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Wed May 07, 2014, 04:24 PM
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JWK24's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 24,832
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Hi Klumn!

I don't like flatting a raise with a marginal hand OOP. I'm either going to 3-bet to 180 (if the opp is loose) or muck. Calling here puts me into too many awkward situations where I can then spew chips postflop because I have no clue whether I'm ahead or behind.

If I saw the flop, I'm checking, as I have absolutely nothing. If I saw the turn, I need to make a standard value bet, which against 2 opps is 2/3 pot.. not less than this. When I get raised, I need to muck to the raise, as it's too easy for me to be outkicked here.

The key with this hand is to either 3-bet or muck preflop and my decision there needs to be based on a read of the opponent.

Hope this helps and good luck at the tables.

John (JWK24)

P.S. Checking the turn is the worst move I could make. If I'm not going to bet top pair when everyone checks the flop.. what am I doing in the hand to begin with!!!


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Wed May 07, 2014, 04:39 PM
(#6)
baud2death's Avatar
Since: Nov 2012
Posts: 1,249
BronzeStar
Quote:
Originally Posted by JWK24 View Post
P.S. Checking the turn is the worst move I could make. If I'm not going to bet top pair when everyone checks the flop.. what am I doing in the hand to begin with!!!
John is right that betting the turn isn't the worst thing to do. The key is having the discipline to fold if you get raised though and just consider that bet lost. My suggestion to check OOP could be a bit too nitty but its these situations that I hate being in so its one of the reasons I hate to get involved with a hand like this OOP.
 
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Wed May 07, 2014, 04:55 PM
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JWK24's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 24,832
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Checking isn't nitty.. it's a spew of the 60 chips from preflop.

John (JWK24)


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6 Time Bracelet Winner


 
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Wed May 07, 2014, 05:22 PM
(#8)
awmm83's Avatar
Since: May 2013
Posts: 142
I may be wrong but i would class a value hand as top pair Q kicker. Anything lower you should aim for a cheap show down . But you probably won't get that multiway. Also ,the turn is a bad street for top pair, multiway. I once read that multiway you should only come out betting with an overpair minimum. This may be quite nitty but i don't think you should be escalating a pot with 1 pair on the turn multiway.
 
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Great input - Wed May 07, 2014, 06:22 PM
(#9)
Klumn's Avatar
Since: Dec 2011
Posts: 31
I love to think about hands in different ways. It makes me a better player in the long run.

Thank you for all the input.

Our bad guy showed down pocket 5s for the full house.
 
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Wed May 07, 2014, 06:53 PM
(#10)
awmm83's Avatar
Since: May 2013
Posts: 142
Always ask ' what's the nuts?' on every street. When the 2nd queen hits and you've asked this question , you'll be more cautious. The turn was a minor scrape, the river was a devastating blow.
When it comes to 1 pair hands, no matter the kicker, even if you have AA, there are 8 hands higher than it.
Always study the board. Street by street.
 

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