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-7,8 $ loss in 4 hands : Bad Play or Bad Beat ?

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-7,8 $ loss in 4 hands : Bad Play or Bad Beat ? - Wed May 07, 2014, 06:05 PM
(#1)
s3n_dan's Avatar
Since: Jul 2012
Posts: 58
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Hey guys,

Those 4 hands were the big part of my loss today (90 %).

I marked these hands as bad beats - all of them .What are your thoughts on this ?

1 Hand

Villain 7 - unknown



2 Hand

Villain 3 - unknown



3 hand - is a clear fold for the villain(time banked 2 minutes on the river before calling) - i guess this line doesn't work in 2 NL

I was 90 % sure he has an overpair a set less likely givin'his pot bets on flop and turn on a dry board



4 Hand

standard KK vs AA (Hero in BB , Villain in CO)


Gl at the tables

Dan
 
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Wed May 07, 2014, 07:48 PM
(#2)
awmm83's Avatar
Since: May 2013
Posts: 142
On the 1 st hand . That flop you can discount your ace as playable. I know it's a 3 bet pot but at this level you just don't know. After that hand , you've completely tilted. AK is a drawing hand . Play it as such .
 
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Thu May 08, 2014, 03:30 AM
(#3)
baud2death's Avatar
Since: Nov 2012
Posts: 1,249
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Hand 1 not a bad beat at all, when you got your money in you were already behind. You might consider it to be a bit donkfish of your opponent to be gambling with a straight draw but even then, it was vs your c-bet bluff so neither of you made your hand. A bit of a cooler but no bad beat here.

Hand 2 in cash AK is not as valuable and looks like you were over-evaluating it here as well as the prior hand. Again not a bad beat, you had nothing and your opponent had a pair.

Hand 3 you were bluffing and got caught, no bad beat here either


I hate to say it but likely a bit of bad play
Hand 1 - You played fine, c-bet your AK and hit your ace on the turn but unlucky that your opponent hit his straight. I am unsure if your discipline is good here but a fold is possible, but understandable if you wanted to fight for TPTK
Hand 2 - You over-valued your AK preflop and then WAY over-valued it going forward getting yourself stuck beind a simple pair of fish hooks
Hand 3 - You were bluffing with possible diamond outs but got caught by a better hand

I think your leak might be over-valuing hands that can draw to better. Cash is a patience game, why rush action where you are behind often and why not focus on action where you are ahead often.
 
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Thu May 08, 2014, 05:30 AM
(#4)
braveslice's Avatar
Since: Feb 2013
Posts: 568
Hand 3 imo is a clear mistake

When Villain2 donk bets the river, he is hardly ever folding.
Had he checked then you would have better chance to make it work.
 
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Thu May 08, 2014, 06:56 AM
(#5)
s3n_dan's Avatar
Since: Jul 2012
Posts: 58
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i don' t think all are mistakes , the only mistake i can see here is in hand 1 where i should check the turn for pot control and to induce. a bluff on the river

2 hand i didn't overvalued AKs in position here at all i don't want to play it multiway that is why i 4 bet to isolate the fish and was going to fold to a 5 bet, on the flop the donk bet all in doesnt seem to be a set , it is more likely a draw or a pair =a range which is at most fliping with my 2 overpairs, nut flush and gutshot draw

3 hand is a 80% fold for a regular in villains position, and the small donk bet on the river is more of a blocking bet that tells me he is not willing to pay more (actually he did after a time bank of 2 min) he way behind my perceived range( many combinations of 2 pairs, sets and draws on the turn) villain hero called which from my humbke opinion is not a + EV call , guess i was overvaluing vilains skills
 
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Thu May 08, 2014, 07:41 AM
(#6)
s3n_dan's Avatar
Since: Jul 2012
Posts: 58
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And 2 more things to add, i can't see the hands know writing from the phone , for the hand 1 i guess i was in the blinds and for the 3 hand it is not 100 % bluff there is a flush draw and an open ended straight draw with 30 % equity on the turn adding that to the fold equity which should be at least 50 % i assume makes this hand a + EV one i think i have to make some calculation for this but my instinct is telling me it is long term profit running this hand more times but again i guess i should not apply it against unknown players to me
 
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Thu May 08, 2014, 07:43 AM
(#7)
awmm83's Avatar
Since: May 2013
Posts: 142
To lose that much in such a short time smacks of tilt. Sorry, but it sounds like you're still tilting. Let it go and bet for value, value ,value. People bluff at higher limits because they all know how to play their holecards. Bluffing is the only way they can get any money off of each other.
 
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Thu May 08, 2014, 08:24 AM
(#8)
s3n_dan's Avatar
Since: Jul 2012
Posts: 58
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I assure you i am not tilting lol i want to learn and to see your view about the hands and to catch maybe something i didnt think of.
I played 3.5 hyper turbo with bigger variance having 30 buyins losing streak (and i mean 30*3.5 loss in one day )and still winning overall , -7,8 $ is not tilting for me
I am more than open to find out why those hands are a bad play
 
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Thu May 08, 2014, 09:10 AM
(#9)
baud2death's Avatar
Since: Nov 2012
Posts: 1,249
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Quote:
Originally Posted by s3n_dan View Post
I assure you i am not tilting lol i want to learn and to see your view about the hands and to catch maybe something i didnt think of.
I played 3.5 hyper turbo with bigger variance having 30 buyins losing streak (and i mean 30*3.5 loss in one day )and still winning overall , -7,8 $ is not tilting for me
I am more than open to find out why those hands are a bad play
First step in learning is taking on board the advice.
Myself and a couple of others have answered your question "was this bad luck or bad play" with "bad play" and you are disagreeing with us.

Hand 2, AK is often over-valued in cash as people think its the monster it is in tournaments. When you hit a flop with AK and no Ace or King, you are drawing. Looking at the sums, the dead-money help you more here than I first realized and there are definite pot odds here even just with the flush as your only outs.. that 2nd guy in the pot helped tilt the odds.

The point remains that AK isn't the monster people think it is and its very easy to get stuck drawing to your hand but being behind. What if he didn't get it in on the flop and it was slow played for each street? Could you have kept in when your odds kept getting smaller and smaller?

AK needs to hit the flop just right and if it doesn't hit an A/K then you are drawing.. Thats why its such a hard hand for people to play, just as some people can't release Kings when they get action from an Ace on the flop.

Bottom line.. i would recommend opening your mind a little more when asking for advice. The advice could be wrong or too nitty for your play style but please don't ask for advice and then come out and defend yourself as if we are attacking you...which we aren't.

EDIT : Re-reading my analysis, I apologize if i came across as too pushy as I might have got your back up about them. Please take onboard any advice you ask for in here, I did and still do and it helps me a lot

Last edited by baud2death; Thu May 08, 2014 at 09:13 AM..
 
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Thu May 08, 2014, 09:53 AM
(#10)
awmm83's Avatar
Since: May 2013
Posts: 142
In tournaments win rates are calculated differently than in cash . You lost , unless i'm mistaken, 400bb
over 4 hands. Now i'm going to do some maths. EEK! We want to know your win rate in terms of Big Blinds won over 100 hands. I want to convert your -400bb/4 hands into a cash winrate. 4 x 25 = 100. So we have our 100 hands. -400 x 25 = -10000 So we have - 10000 bb/ 100 hands . This calculation is extreme but it gives you an idea.
If you throw money away in cash like it's an MTT buy in, you're going broke hyper turbo quick style.
 
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Thu May 08, 2014, 09:53 AM
(#11)
s3n_dan's Avatar
Since: Jul 2012
Posts: 58
BronzeStar
I am more prone to fold AK early in a tournament and SNG than in a cash game. Here i have positional advantage where people think i want to steal and will 3 bet lighter but this ridiculos 3 bet of 10 cents is giving to much odds to players in blinds and i cannot call i chose to 4 bet planning to fold on a 5 bet and giving the chance to players to call with worst hands OOP , i cannot understand in what place i overvalued this hand? I dont want to defend myself i just want to find out arguments which prove me wrong
 
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Thu May 08, 2014, 10:04 AM
(#12)
awmm83's Avatar
Since: May 2013
Posts: 142
The small 3 bet is actually pricing you in for a small price. Call and see a small pot. If you hit then bingo. I don't know if you know a good tournament strategy , playing such fast games. When we have 100 bb in our stack, High cards lose value. Speculative cards gain value.
Once we get to 50 bb things flip. Speculative hands lose value and high cards are top dog.
Cash,really, is no different. When we have 50 bb I want to get my chips in preflop with AK. 100bb , not so much. Especially playing zoom.In zoom, for 100 bb, KK minimum is what I'm shoving/ calling preflop .

Last edited by awmm83; Thu May 08, 2014 at 10:07 AM..
 
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Thu May 08, 2014, 10:26 AM
(#13)
s3n_dan's Avatar
Since: Jul 2012
Posts: 58
BronzeStar
Quote:
Originally Posted by awmm83 View Post
In tournaments win rates are calculated differently than in cash . You lost , unless i'm mistaken, 400bb
over 4 hands. Now i'm going to do some maths. EEK! We want to know your win rate in terms of Big Blinds won over 100 hands. I want to convert your -400bb/4 hands into a cash winrate. 4 x 25 = 100. So we have our 100 hands. -400 x 25 = -10000 So we have - 10000 bb/ 100 hands . This calculation is extreme but it gives you an idea.
If you throw money away in cash like it's an MTT buy in, you're going broke hyper turbo quick style.
After this hands my winrate droped to 9.x / 100 dont remember exactly , from a tiny sample of 6000 hands .I just started to build my bankrol with this games
 
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Thu May 08, 2014, 06:36 PM
(#14)
dirt eh's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 1,274
Hand 1: I would elect for a check/fold OTF tbh.
Hand 2: Standard, never folding.
Hand 3: I'm not defending with Q7s vs a SB open. Fold PF.

As played, the call OTF isn't great but it's ok I guess. OTT the villain bets pot again. I'd be worried now. OTT this is not a good raise. If you're going to raise the turn you need to shove here. This way we have some fold equity. Having said that, we're getting 2:1 and we potentially have 15 outs as long as our diamonds are clean. JUST CALL! OTR you have zero fold equity. Note: DON'T BLUFF AT MICRO STAKES.

Last edited by dirt eh; Thu May 08, 2014 at 06:43 PM..
 
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Thu May 08, 2014, 07:23 PM
(#15)
s3n_dan's Avatar
Since: Jul 2012
Posts: 58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dirt eh View Post
Hand 1: I would elect for a check/fold OTF tbh.
Hand 2: Standard, never folding.
Hand 3: I'm not defending with Q7s vs a SB open. Fold PF.

As played, the call OTF isn't great but it's ok I guess. OTT the villain bets pot again. I'd be worried now. OTT this is not a good raise. If you're going to raise the turn you need to shove here. This way we have some fold equity. Having said that, we're getting 2:1 and we potentially have 15 outs as long as our diamonds are clean. JUST CALL! OTR you have zero fold equity. Note: DON'T BLUFF AT MICRO STAKES.
Thanx for your answers Dirt Eh, you're probably right about 1 hand - Check folding was better.
in 3 hand i play wider vs SB because i have position Q7s has some playability postflop against a stealing range (it also depends on the villain playing in SB)

OTT I raise small(2,x) because i think it has the same fold equity as all in does, i was going to give up on the river ,but villain's small bet (after 2 pot bets ) somehow convinced me he was giving up and i complete the bluff shoving. It was by no means villain's small bet on the river to induce my shove .
Why i chose raising the turn instead of calling ? Because Calling was worse, in this case I only hope to hit the river with 30 % equity which is - EV , there is no fold equity .You cand find below what i mean when i get to the river:

EV Raise Turn = 30 % * 4,28 $ - 70% * 4,28 $ + Fold Equity = -1,712 $ + 3,42$ * 55 % = 0,169$ > 0
EV Call Turn = -1,712$

So villain has to fold at least 55 % of the time on the river for this line to be profitable
 
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Thu May 08, 2014, 07:55 PM
(#16)
dirt eh's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 1,274
Alright... Let's go back to how you're ranging the villain... overpair, JJ+ right?


Board:
       Equity     Win     Tie
SB     64.94%  64.94%   0.00% { JJ+ }
BB     35.06%  35.06%   0.00% { Qd7d }


Now let's look at your shove vs. his hand


Board:
       Equity     Win     Tie
SB     23.59%  23.59%   0.00% { KK }
BB     76.41%  76.41%   0.00% { TT, 66-44, KdTd, QdTd, JdTd, Td9d, Td8d, 9d8d, 8d7d }


If you shove turn you're giving the villain 1.66:1 odds. So he needs about 38% equity to continue... pretty hard to continue with an over-pair here, unless he puts you on a draw and only a draw. I really don't like the min raise OTT. Doesn't accomplish anything imo. And if he stacks off OTT at least you have outs!

Raising all in OTR is a death wish.

Last edited by dirt eh; Thu May 08, 2014 at 07:58 PM..
 
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Thu May 08, 2014, 08:45 PM
(#17)
thephoenix11's Avatar
Since: Mar 2012
Posts: 186
Hi. I would like you to ask yourself why you created this post in the first place?
Was it to let the guys see your hands and give advice and pointers as to where you may have gone wrong?
Or were you seeking affirmation of your own answer in order to justify your game play?
If it was the latter then i'm afraid you shouldn't really do that.

If it was the former then you really need to open your eyes a bit. These guys give out sound advice day after day for no reward other than to help others progress with their game.

In my opinion the first hand was bad play. You shut yourself off to the possibility of being beat. This is 2nl where people will hang on to pretty much any hand as long as it's got draw possibilities so the likelihood of him having pocket 5's A5 or an 5 suited was all to real. Since he called your 4 bet you convinced yourself that you're A was ahead even though the board was rediculously draw heavy with both flush and straight draws on the flop and turn.

In the second hand again you get too carried away imo. You raise and get re-raised and a call. Why raise again? If you had AA, KK even QQ i could see it but realistically all you got is 2 high cards. And then you flop a flush draw and call against the odds. you aren't even getting 2-1 with a 3-1 draw so the call was a mistake.

In the 3rd hand again you chased a draw. Not only did you miss the draw but you try to bluff the guy when he bets on the river. I'm easily an entry level player but even i can see the problem with that.

At the end of the day you lost 3 big pots that could easily have been much smaller ones or even folded.

You've also come here for advice that you are rejecting and arguing your own line on how you played it right even though you ask whether you did or not.

I'm not qualified to give advice on other people's play but i can see the mistakes you made because i make them myself all the time. I can also say that if you want advice then accept it when it's given. You don't have to employ it in your game but if you ask for it then don't try and argue it out of the water because it doesn't fit with your vision.

Anyway gl to you and hope you get what you came for whatever it was .
 
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Fri May 09, 2014, 01:55 AM
(#18)
s3n_dan's Avatar
Since: Jul 2012
Posts: 58
BronzeStar
Quote:
Originally Posted by thephoenix11 View Post
Hi. I would like you to ask yourself why you created this post in the first place?
Was it to let the guys see your hands and give advice and pointers as to where you may have gone wrong?
Or were you seeking affirmation of your own answer in order to justify your game play?
If it was the latter then i'm afraid you shouldn't really do that.

If it was the former then you really need to open your eyes a bit. These guys give out sound advice day after day for no reward other than to help others progress with their game.

In the second hand again you get too carried away imo. You raise and get re-raised and a call. Why raise again? If you had AA, KK even QQ i could see it but realistically all you got is 2 high cards. And then you flop a flush draw and call against the odds. you aren't even getting 2-1 with a 3-1 draw so the call was a mistake.

In the 3rd hand again you chased a draw. Not only did you miss the draw but you try to bluff the guy when he bets on the river. I'm easily an entry level player but even i can see the problem with that.

At the end of the day you lost 3 big pots that could easily have been much smaller ones or even folded.

You've also come here for advice that you are rejecting and arguing your own line on how you played it right even though you ask whether you did or not.

I'm not qualified to give advice on other people's play but i can see the mistakes you made because i make them myself all the time. I can also say that if you want advice then accept it when it's given. You don't have to employ it in your game but if you ask for it then don't try and argue it out of the water because it doesn't fit with your vision.

Anyway gl to you and hope you get what you came for whatever it was .

Thank you for your feedback , seems like bluffing / semi bluffing in micro stakes doesnt work maybe this should be something i have to work on. Well i wanted to create a debate from which everybody should learn not only me. And also i can make a difference when the advice is good or probably not. Dirt Eh and all the guys actually had some good points , in your case in the second hand i gave already all the answers what i did and what i was planning to do in case i got 5 bet. When i play the hands i don't look only on my holecards
 
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Fri May 09, 2014, 03:08 AM
(#19)
thephoenix11's Avatar
Since: Mar 2012
Posts: 186
The thing you have to remember at real micro level is that you get every kind of player there is. From the rich kid larking about the the tilted pro blowing off steam. Bluffing can only work if you know you're opponents and you say yourself you had no info on the :P

Like i said i'm hardly qualified to give sound advice but i did see mistakes and jst felt you weren't opening up to the criticism you were recieving. Just remember these guys don't want to rule you game, they only want to impart their experience on you to help you improve your own game.

Gl at the tables
 
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Fri May 09, 2014, 03:38 AM
(#20)
baud2death's Avatar
Since: Nov 2012
Posts: 1,249
BronzeStar
Dont bluff against fish

They will chase underpairs or call of Ace high, they like to see flops and as many cards as possible and don't understand pot odds or hand ranging.

A bluff only works if they are putting you on a hand they can't beat.
The problem is, they aren't even thinking about what you have or they are so fish that they incorrectly put you on a hand they can beat.

They love to call, so don't think you can outplay them with a bluff, outplay them with a better hand.

If you shove me on the river and I have nothing but a pair, i am likely folding (unless i have a read on you that you like to bluff a lot) because I am a good enough player to know that this is rarely a bluff and more than likely someone betting to try for max value and risk not getting min value.

If however I am DonkFish, I have no idea if you bluff or not (because i dont keep an eye on that), i have no idea about what you might have and all i care about is that my A2 which is my favorite hand matched a 2 on the board and I have a pair... meanwhile you try to bluff that when the 4th heart came on the river it made you the flush... DonkFish calls and you facepalm.
 

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