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Quads but did i play them right?

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Quads but did i play them right? - Thu May 08, 2014, 07:32 PM
(#1)
thephoenix11's Avatar
Since: Mar 2012
Posts: 186
Ok so it's pocket 10s and i flop quads. was check call check call shove on the river v 3 opps the right way to play?



I know i got max value anyway but i'm unsure of weather i should have led or not.
 
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Thu May 08, 2014, 08:18 PM
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JWK24's Avatar
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If you think the opp will call a river bet, then leading and sizing it at whatever I think the opp will call, is not a problem. If you think the opp will bet the river, then I'm going for a check/raise.

It depends on the opps and how they're playing.

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Fri May 09, 2014, 03:56 AM
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baud2death's Avatar
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I don't mind the check on the flop, you don't have position and didn't raise pre so it would just stink of 77 or a Ten as its unlikely to be JJ-AA!

Flat call here is great, your opponent clearly wants to take the lead and as long as he wants trying to steal it, he will continue.

Checking the turn seems good here, they seem keen to call a flop bet so some of them have equity, you are more likely to get more value here by playing passive, only as long as the pot is building to the size you feel you are happy with... Happy with the turn call as well, a raise here likely gets 2 or 3 of them bailing.

The river bet is fine, its a good size and no-one seems to care that you have acted the weakest for the entire hand but suddenly come out firing... good for you

I am betting the river here no matter, I think the commitment to the pot is strong enough here that you are getting called by at least 1 of them, possibly 2 on the river..

To your question.. checking the flop with the nuts is fine, if someone didn't pickup the lead on the flop then you would have wanted to lead the turn as to not reduce value. Quads is a very hard hand to get paid off on, especially if you flop it because there is only 1 card to help your opponents.

You let someone else do the driving because someone else wanted to do the driving, if they didn't then you needed to take over.
 
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Fri May 09, 2014, 04:10 AM
(#4)
thephoenix11's Avatar
Since: Mar 2012
Posts: 186
Quote:
Originally Posted by baud2death View Post
To your question.. checking the flop with the nuts is fine, if someone didn't pickup the lead on the flop then you would have wanted to lead the turn as to not reduce value. Quads is a very hard hand to get paid off on, especially if you flop it because there is only 1 card to help your opponents.
So if the check had of been flopped around i should have taken the lead on the turn to get my value? What about sizing? would i be looking at making a big bet say 2/3 - pot sized or a smaller bet say 1/3-1/2 pot?
 
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Fri May 09, 2014, 04:47 AM
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baud2death's Avatar
Since: Nov 2012
Posts: 1,249
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I want to see a bet here that keeps my opponents interested but doesn't scare them off
I also need to build a pot, so personally it all comes down to how fish my opponents are.

If they show big VPIP, i might bet low here say 1/4 pot because I think they will call the turn and fold the river. I will possibly get more value by doing that here than just forcing all but 1 opponent off with a 50% bet.

So the big question is, how likely are my opponents to hang on with a tiny bet or fold to a big bet and judge accordingly.. if i can get them all to call a big bet then much better!
 
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Fri May 09, 2014, 05:31 AM
(#6)
thephoenix11's Avatar
Since: Mar 2012
Posts: 186
so as was the case, with 3 opps all previously shown to be calling light and playing many flops, if it had of been checked i would have probs got at least 2 calls from a medium to large bet.

However if i'm playing a tighter table then a smaller bet is the wiser option.

Good to know. Thanks for the advice
 
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Fri May 09, 2014, 07:20 AM
(#7)
baud2death's Avatar
Since: Nov 2012
Posts: 1,249
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Not exactly

If your opponents are fish betting low keeps them around as 3 low bets are better than 1 big bet

However if your opponents are tight you want to raise the price

This is because no matter the bet tight players are less likely to gamble and will fold a lot more and thus 3 tight players there will fold just as much to a big bet as they would to a small one

So for that reason we want to make it expensive so the ones staying in are more likely to call a big bet on the river, we want them to have a hand as they are more likely to pay us off

So whilst we risk less value by forcing some people out, we were only getting value from those players if they hit a hand and if they did they are most likely to call a strong bet

It's complicated to explain but the basics are... Fish call small bets and fold to big bets with marginal holdings

Nits will only call with strong holdings and will fold to action if they dont, very fit and fold

Knowing how to bet here comes down to how to exploit different player types, as a fish would call you down here even if you are bluffing and a nit can fold here even if you bluffing


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Fri May 09, 2014, 08:03 AM
(#8)
awmm83's Avatar
Since: May 2013
Posts: 142
This, to me , was a preflop shove. Your M is 10. You have fold equity over the BB abd the CO. The big stack limps. Big stack will probably call but that's what you want. We always want an M above 18. When we hit 17, we raise 1st in more to try and steal . If called we will still win our share of flops. When M hits 17.we want double ups NOW!
On leading out. Dan Harrington states there are 4 key principles of poker. Strength ( Of cards) Aggression ( Best choice 9/10 times) Betting ( Bet strong and weak hands. Middle road see a cheap showdown). And finally Deception (Self explanatory) We don't need a lot of deception at the lowly micros.
It's for higher stakes.
 
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Fri May 09, 2014, 09:14 PM
(#9)
ArtySmokesPS's Avatar
Since: Oct 2011
Posts: 7,353
Quote:
Originally Posted by awmm83 View Post
This, to me , was a preflop shove.
With 26bb? I'm not keen.
Nothing worse calls a shove of that size except perhaps for AK which is flipping. Better hands always call and you lose 80% of the time against those, so cramming it in has maximum risk (your tourney life) for minimal reward (a bit of dead money).

As played, I don't think I can resist min-raising the turn, as it's pretty likely one of these guys will have a flush, straight or boat and will shove it in. Just calling is also fine, as you can easily get all in on the river, by donking or raising, because there's almost certainly going to be someone with a strong second best hand on a connected board like this.


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Last edited by ArtySmokesPS; Fri May 09, 2014 at 09:17 PM..
 
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Sat May 10, 2014, 01:12 AM
(#10)
thephoenix11's Avatar
Since: Mar 2012
Posts: 186
Quote:
Originally Posted by awmm83 View Post
This, to me , was a preflop shove. Your M is 10. You have fold equity over the BB abd the CO.
I can't agree with that. I get robbed all the time by shoving with 9's 10's j's q's and k's by the monster stack calling what is effectively a cheap call given the stack sizes with some sort of A or suited connectors to find myself sent packing after being outflopped.
I thought about a raise which my standard would have been 3x +1 per caller so in this case 500 but again the big stack and not many flops i'm happy with available made the limp more favourable to me. in relation to the table the big stack is massive so he is seeing many flops and getting them cheap jst picking his times.

Not up to speed on this m score thing and still not up to speed on fold equity.

Preflop i was perfectly happy with my play given the situation. Post-flop i jst wasn't sure if passive was correct in relation to long term profitability.
 
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Sat May 10, 2014, 06:41 AM
(#11)
awmm83's Avatar
Since: May 2013
Posts: 142
The reason for my shove is that there is dead money, we have a monster and , I have to say, in tournament poker , you need to accept you must win MANY coinflips. With an M of 2, I'll shove any 2 from the BB because of the pot odds and lack of fold equity. You'd be surprised at what hits. The donks people laugh at for calling your shove with 7 2 o , when M is 2 , are actually really knowledgable players .



My chart from kill everyone. All + signs are shoves from any position. 99 + are monsters.

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Last edited by awmm83; Sat May 10, 2014 at 06:56 AM..
 
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Sat May 10, 2014, 09:21 AM
(#12)
awmm83's Avatar
Since: May 2013
Posts: 142
Quote:
Originally Posted by ArtySmokesPS View Post
With 26bb? I'm not keen.
Nothing worse calls a shove of that size except perhaps for AK which is flipping. Better hands always call and you lose 80% of the time against those, so cramming it in has maximum risk (your tourney life) for minimal reward (a bit of dead money).

As played, I don't think I can resist min-raising the turn, as it's pretty likely one of these guys will have a flush, straight or boat and will shove it in. Just calling is also fine, as you can easily get all in on the river, by donking or raising, because there's almost certainly going to be someone with a strong second best hand on a connected board like this.
I love Negreanu. He said he'd rather call 22. 22 is favourite vs AK . Slight, but still favourite. On the dead money. 20% of stack. That's big. I am not a fan of survival unless it's a satellite. It's the survival mode that lets me bully you using fold equity .Have you read poker and the art of war. All men must die. In an mtt you have to in the vanguard. In life I'm the biggest pacifist ever. In an mtt i'm a Viking warrior longing for Valhalla! :sly:
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Last edited by awmm83; Sat May 10, 2014 at 10:01 AM..
 
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Sun May 11, 2014, 02:43 AM
(#13)
thephoenix11's Avatar
Since: Mar 2012
Posts: 186
Thanks for the chart. So the + holdings are shoves from any pos? what are all the numbers? and how come x from vertical and y from horizontal is showing diff number than the reverse?
 
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Sun May 11, 2014, 06:45 AM
(#14)
awmm83's Avatar
Since: May 2013
Posts: 142
Suited cards move left to right. Off suit are up to down. The numbers are the card scores. So , remember I said it was M x players left to act. If your m is 6 and it's folded to you in the hijack, with 4 left to act you need a card worth 24 to push.

The thing I like most is the reality of rag aces and kt offsuit . Just look at the mediocre scores. A9o is equal to A4s . Now the penny drops . 22 is 1 higher
 
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Sun May 11, 2014, 02:49 PM
(#15)
thephoenix11's Avatar
Since: Mar 2012
Posts: 186
thanks. If i can figure it out i might trial this in my hyper turbo's
 

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