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Serious Issue with my Live games.

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Serious Issue with my Live games. - Fri May 09, 2014, 08:05 AM
(#1)
adikumar2010's Avatar
Since: Mar 2011
Posts: 1,094
I need everybody's help here, if you don't mind giving free advice. I don't know if any other person has had the same feeling in his/her life. Maybe I am the only one with this syndrome. But you're all welcome to give advice even if you are not victim of these problems.

I have a problem when I play in live poker games, can you all please tell me how should I overcome those fear.

I started playing live poker in the most toughest $1/$1 cash game in the city. Few reasons why I liked to goto that game and not to normal games with rich fishes shoving AJ 100BB preflop or loose players opening 9Ts for 10BB preflop with there 60BB stack.

a) The table where I played had all the old-timers who has been playing poker for more then 3-4 years. So they are predictable with there moves and play.

b) I like to play against thinkers, by that I don't mean total pros coz they think correctly all the time. By thinkers I mean player who use the brain to come to conclusion but that doesn't mean they are doing it correctly. As you have seen it's easy to bluff a thinking poker player who is on a medium level (say 3-4/10 on poker skills).

c) To extract value and to bluff on that table you can't play ABC poker and book a big win there. You need to get frisky and yes!! have a fancy play syndrome in that game to 4-bet river as a bluff with just a click back and make them laydown nut straight. Coz the other opponents on the table are doing the same moves. I was very comfortable with them.

d) I have been playing with them for 1 year, so I know how they all play. But if you go there first time and play tight ABC poker, you can maximum win 20BB even if you grind for 5 hours. They are not payoff wizards.

Now that game closed down, so I went to normal games with unknowns full of fishes shoving on draw and players who think a bit when playing a hand but are not capable of 3-betting or 4-betting as a bluff.


Now coming back to the main issue.

I play $1/$1 live game regularly at an underground poker room. I have 50 buyins for that game and this is the lowest stakes in my town so all the busted players from higher limit plays here..lol and all the starters also play in this game.


There are two major problems, which I face while I am playing:

1. If I am winning suppose 2-3 buyins (1 buyin = 100 BB = $100), my brain tells me to stop take the profit and be happy go home. So I call time for 45mins (We need to call time before leaving as it's not a casino, so we can't hit and run). And during that 45mins I play minimum number of pots and just want to freeze the profit and leave home. Even if I am up in the first 1 hour or first 3 hours as soon as I see good profit in that session, I just call time. My unconsciousness mind tells me to take the money and leave. And if I against my will stay more after that thought came into my mind I know I will be playing tigher in the fear of losing chips. So after that thought kicks in, there is no point in staying as I will not be playing even my C-Game.

Or say If I am sitting for 2 hours and nothing is happening much. I am just folding and if I am up like even 20BB I leave coz I hate going home with loss on my mind. I feel good when going back home even if I am winning 10BB. Coz it keeps my confidence high and I don't think I suck in poker.

* Win is a win even if it's small and helps you keep motivated & happy. Next time you go for game you will feel good about yourself.

I have played upto 16 hours live sesssion many time before, so it's not like I run out of juice/energy. But that time I had a job so I had assurity that if I don't win, doesn't matter I have backup source for money. Since I left job from last 1 year or so. Now I know I am dependent on poker. So I need to book a profit in most sessions even if it's small. I grind that's the reason I go home with small profits. I don't take huge gamble as I feel 1-2 buyins per day is good money.

PS: It's not like I always used to leave table when I am winning 2-3 buyins. I ran over the whole table many tables by winning upto 10 buyins in 4 hours, definitely I was running good day that and playing super-aggressive. When I am in the zone (which happens like once in 2 months) and then I don't quit myself instead I stay there till the end until every player leaves or they run out of money


2. It's somewhat related to first point, when I win suppose 3 days in a row and book a good profit everyday. I am reluctant or scared to go the next day for the same game because of these reasons:

a) I think that I made good money for past 2-3 days, don't want to loose all the profit in one day and then return home with sad face.

b) I think that I have been playing continously for few days, so it's better to take a break and not let the previous profits/losses affect my game (coz I will be thinking unknowingly of my last winning/losing session). So if I take 2 days break. It will all wash out from my brain. This is a good technique to take a break but it is recommended when you are losing 4-5 days in a row or you are on tilt. This is not an advice given when you are winning 4-5 days in a row to take break, if you know what I mean.

PS: I have played each and everyday of the month earlier, so it's not like I run out of energy or get tired/bored.



MAIN REASONS WHY I THINK THIS HAPPENS:

1. I have a problem I think too much, in simple words overthinking is causing all the issue.

2. The idea of not playing anymore or not going for game next day is just a fear of losing the profits that I made in last few sessions. Coz I can't afford to loose coz as I am living on poker money.

3. I used to have a job, which gave me some money and confidence that even if I don't win I will have sufficient money to pay bills.

4. As long as you are playing poker for fun or part-time it's all easy. But when you start to take it seriously and it is the only source of income things change you feel more pressure of winning as you are living on poker money.

5. I am a confused soul


You'll are welcome to leave your suggestions/advice to overcome these weakness/fear in my game.

Thanks

Last edited by adikumar2010; Fri May 09, 2014 at 08:21 AM..
 
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Fri May 09, 2014, 08:53 AM
(#2)
baud2death's Avatar
Since: Nov 2012
Posts: 1,249
BronzeStar
I love the idea of Time, i am not a live poker player so haven't heard that before

Can I ask, why not focus more on the online games? Would that not be of use to you?
 
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Fri May 09, 2014, 09:03 AM
(#3)
adikumar2010's Avatar
Since: Mar 2011
Posts: 1,094
Quote:
Originally Posted by baud2death View Post
I love the idea of Time, i am not a live poker player so haven't heard that before

Can I ask, why not focus more on the online games? Would that not be of use to you?
Time call is 45mins, sometimes 1 hour. So if you win a big pot you can't leave immediately. It's fair, gives you chance to get your money back from the winner. And if you are the winner even if you keep folding for 45mins you will loose 5BB at max. Although I try to play normal for last 45mins, but I become tight I know for sure.

I gave online poker shot but I have noticed that I am making 10x more money in live cash games and tournaments as compared to online. Live poker is what suits me.

I feel and have realized that live poker player might not always be a good online player, but a good online player can be a good live player.

Last edited by adikumar2010; Fri May 09, 2014 at 06:25 PM..
 
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Fri May 09, 2014, 09:25 AM
(#4)
baud2death's Avatar
Since: Nov 2012
Posts: 1,249
BronzeStar
OK thats cool

Quote:
MAIN REASONS WHY I THINK THIS HAPPENS:

1. I have a problem I think too much, in simple words overthinking is causing all the issue.
I have the same problem.
This comes a lot from not being relaxed enough and concerned about results rather than play.

Some pro's have this down to an art because although the money is important, they are rarely playing at the stakes they worry about losing, its monopoly money for them unless the stakes are x100 higher.

If i said to you "I will give you $200 a night, all you have to do is play poker and not keep score or use real money, I don't even care if you win or lose, play chips and just play for fun" - that would be unreal right? And how relaxed would you feel?

It comes from being results focused rather than decision focused, its good to think on multiple levels but you end up leveling yourself.

Quote:
2. The idea of not playing anymore or not going for game next day is just a fear of losing the profits that I made in last few sessions. Coz I can't afford to loose coz as I am living on poker money.
If you can't afford to skip a day, you might be playing a bit scared money. What happens if you are sick for a week? What do you do then?

Perhaps you need to save money aside for downtime or sick-days otherwise you could end up throwing good money after bad.


Quote:
3. I used to have a job, which gave me some money and confidence that even if I don't win I will have sufficient money to pay bills.
I think some players move to playing poker as a job too quickly. They lose their job or quit it because they hate it and then end up putting themselves in at a BI that with a downswing clears them out and they cant afford to pay bills.

I reckon, personally, I could only play poker for a living if I had 1 year of salary in the bank saved up. I then take a stab at grinding and if i can't be in profit over the long run, I get a regular job again.

Personally, I would probably only do the above also if all my bills were paid off first (no debt)

It might be better to play Poker and subsidise it with a part-time job?


Quote:
4. As long as you are playing poker for fun or part-time it's all easy. But when you start to take it seriously and it is the only source of income things change you feel more pressure of winning as you are living on poker money.
That pressure is under your control to some degree and down to your bankroll management. You need to be saving money to balance against downswings. There is no use spending money on fancy meals and expensive clothes when you are upswinging and then getting stuck when you are downswinging. An upswing should just go straight into the bank and be there KNOWING it will be needed when you downswing again.


Quote:
5. I am a confused soul
Well that i can't help with

If you find live poker is too difficult to do as a full time job, take a part-time job to ease the pain.
Manage your bankroll so that your upswings arent treated as windfalls but just something your downswings will need as a buffer.

Good luck, I think with good BR management you are set
Also, arent there other games other than this single one as surely being up against regs in the same game over and over creates issues?
 
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Fri May 09, 2014, 11:20 AM
(#5)
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,499
(Head Trainer)
I don't get the calling time requirement. I mean I get that they don't want someone doubling up and quitting immediately, but seriously that's such fish-think. Does the time rule apply to only winners? If you're down $50 can you leave immediately? What if you bust and reload a couple times, then double up/win some pots. You have 250bb in front of you right now but have actually put 300bb on the table factoring in your 2 reloads... can you leave immediately? What if you're winning, but get a call and have an emergency at home, can you go? There are so many problems with such a rule. And tbh, in my experience almost no one hits and runs live games. Recreational players typically don't because they came to play (which they do for fun, and it's the most fun when you're winning), and pros don't because the best time to be playing is when you're winning.

Anyway that's not what your post is about.

It's clear that you are playing scared money, and feeling financial pressure around your results. All of this leads to playing worse than your A game, which you have clearly recognized and that's good.

Bauds suggestion that you find another source of income, even if just a part time job, is a good one. Think of it as a short term solution. It will hopefully take the money pressure off and free you up to not play scared of losing. A real good plan for a professional is to have X months living expenses banked outside of your playing bankroll. This way you can play your A game and absorb the natural swings of the game. If you have a bad day at the tables you're not feeling the pressure of how to put food on the table or pay the rent, that money is accounted for. So supplementing your income now while growing your roll and building that living expense buffer is a short term idea that may help you with some of these mental blocks.

The other thing to get your head around is that poker is one big long game, not just a break of individual sessions. If you are a pro and have to provide an income statement, you're not going to give someone a list of your daily ups and downs... no, you're going to say I made $X last year. X will probably be a bigger number if you cut short sessions where you're losing or don't feel well, and play longer when winning, in the zone, etc.


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Fri May 09, 2014, 05:38 PM
(#6)
adikumar2010's Avatar
Since: Mar 2011
Posts: 1,094
Time Call have the following rules Dave:

1) Does the time rule apply to only winners? YES
If you are winning you can't leave immediately like minimum 40 mins call time.

2) If you're down $50 can you leave immediately? YES
When you are breakeven or losing then you can leave anytime.

3) What if you bust and reload a couple times, then double up/win some pots. You have 250bb in front of you right now but have actually put 300bb on the table factoring in your 2 reloads... can you leave immediately?
YES you can leave, as overall you are not winning for that session. But not like immediately after winning huge pot like you get to triple up from your 3rd buyin (you are breakeven overall), but just stay for 10mins more.

4) What if you're winning, but get a call and have an emergency at home, can you go? YES
If its emergency then you can leave for sure but you can't do that everyday, they will know you are just doing hit & run.

* In underground poker rooms/clubs, they don't have enough players coming in and out as it is not a public place like casino, only close people have the info about these games (as it is illegal in my city). So they have less players and if everyone leaves after winning 1 or 2 buyin then the losing player will have no chance to get it back, as no more new players are coming. Maybe 1-2 new players will join in. And the game will split-up if half the table win and leaves usually in weekdays as there are less people.


I think this time call is psychological factor for me having fear to lose profit, if there was no call time criteria, like in Casino I can get-up anytime and that will make me more comfortable I might stay longer coz I know there is no restriction. So I think call-time acts like a mental barrier when you are winning because now you know that you need to stay 45mins more if you want to take $300 profit home. I have felt practically when I was in casino no matter I am winning/losing I play till I am not feeling tired. This call-time creates a fake fear.

And this factor makes me play tournaments with more ease, coz there you are just playing for the win. In cash-games you can't figure out when is the best time to get-up (like I am winning 3 buyins should I quit home). MTT is better in the way that you don't have any option you just want to keep winning pot after pots.

But after playing so many tournaments live/online and live cash games (I never played online cash games). My overall money has came from the live cash games (like 80% from live cash and 20% from online/live tournies). I like tournaments for the thrill and it's a race for the title. But maybe I am not as good in MTT as cash games. But I led myself to believe in the fact that I am pure MTT player and I hate cash games (coz this is what I want). But I am good the other way..strange. And I still want myself to believe that I can be good in tournies although all my profits came from live cash games.

And you said I should keep poker bankroll of 50 buyins aside and some money in my bank account incase I don't play poker for 6 months for whatever reason I can still not be woried about the bills.

I can tell you my 40 buyins are aside in poker accounts (skrill+pokerstars+neteller+some cash) and I have money separately saved in my bank account for emergency like If I don't do anything for money I can pay bill, buy food, pay rent for almost 1 year from my savings in bank account and still I am playing scared money

Last edited by adikumar2010; Fri May 09, 2014 at 06:29 PM..
 
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Tue May 13, 2014, 08:46 AM
(#7)
braveslice's Avatar
Since: Feb 2013
Posts: 568
I know Negreanu plays/played a preset time, maybe you could do the same? I'm pretty sure that when your brains says enough (when you call the time), you win most by folding every hand. I think you are just normal there.

Last edited by braveslice; Tue May 13, 2014 at 09:01 AM..
 

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