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Big Blind Play

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Big Blind Play - Fri May 09, 2014, 10:59 AM
(#1)
bellsniff123's Avatar
Since: Jan 2012
Posts: 1
Hey guys,

I've had a few situations now where i've been sat pre-flop in the big blind with some average hands (think middle connectors/ace-rag)and it's been limped around to me. I need some advice on how to play both pre-flop (checking/raising) and post-flop, especially since if i check and hit on the flop, i've got to make a decision about a very average hand that's a long way out of position!
 
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Mon May 12, 2014, 06:24 AM
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braveslice's Avatar
Since: Feb 2013
Posts: 568
The answer to your qustion, even if possible to answer, would be quite lenghty, around 50 pages for the basics, I assume

I know only one general rule about BB limbed in hands: Be extremely cautios and don't play for big pots generally.

Instead of raising or calling, leading is one way to go too (OTF).

Pre w many limpers I find it a bit suicidal to raise, they will call and you are OOP. Honestly, most of us would make most money by just folding the hand pre even if limped to you (semi serious).

Against late limps, go for raises.

ps. you didn't say tourney or money games, I answered money games.

One repeated scenario is that: BU limps, SB limps, BB raises, BU folds, SB calls, SB checks, BB bets, SB folds

Last edited by braveslice; Mon May 12, 2014 at 06:40 AM..
 
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Mon May 12, 2014, 06:57 AM
(#3)
baud2death's Avatar
Since: Nov 2012
Posts: 1,249
BronzeStar
Big Blind is the weakest position on the table after Small Blind.
You think you have an edge because you are last to act preflop but you are first to act there after.

Avoid playing from the BB unless you feel position wont be a factor because if it is, you are often going to find yourself check/folding, and when you don't you are donk betting...
 
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Mon May 12, 2014, 01:32 PM
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ArtySmokesPS's Avatar
Since: Oct 2011
Posts: 7,355
If there's more than one limper, check every hand that you wouldn't open UTG. i.e. If you raise TT+/AQ+ UTG, then you should be fine raising those hands for value against limpers, and then play it the same way you would if you were UTG. With anything marginal (which includes stuff like AT or KTs), just check and see a free flop.

On the flop, it's actually OK to check-fold anything worse than top pair or a decent draw. In multiway limped pots, the winning hand will likely be very strong; typically top 2 pair or better. If you have little chance of beating top two, don't put any money in the pot. Donking with something like middle pair is unlikely to be a good idea unless the board is really dry, like a rainbow T72, as on connected boards, someone is bound to have something with decent equity, and you'll hate most turn and river cards.

As another example, let's say there are three limpers and you have K4o. If the flop comes KT7 with a flush draw, you have top pair no kicker. I would check here. If there's a bet and a call, you should fold. You're losing to most Kx hands, and are in bad shape against combo draws too. It's far better to just lose the forced 1bb from pre-flop, than bet and get called by a better hand, or check-call and get value-towned.


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Last edited by ArtySmokesPS; Mon May 12, 2014 at 01:37 PM..
 
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Mon May 12, 2014, 07:22 PM
(#5)
TrumpinJoe's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 4,557
Quote:
Originally Posted by ArtySmokesPS View Post
If there's more than one limper, check every hand that you wouldn't open UTG. i.e. If you raise TT+/AQ+ UTG, then you should be fine raising those hands for value against limpers, and then play it the same way you would if you were UTG. With anything marginal (which includes stuff like AT or KTs), just check and see a free flop.

On the flop, it's actually OK to check-fold anything worse than top pair or a decent draw. In multiway limped pots, the winning hand will likely be very strong; typically top 2 pair or better. If you have little chance of beating top two, don't put any money in the pot. Donking with something like middle pair is unlikely to be a good idea unless the board is really dry, like a rainbow T72, as on connected boards, someone is bound to have something with decent equity, and you'll hate most turn and river cards.

As another example, let's say there are three limpers and you have K4o. If the flop comes KT7 with a flush draw, you have top pair no kicker. I would check here. If there's a bet and a call, you should fold. You're losing to most Kx hands, and are in bad shape against combo draws too. It's far better to just lose the forced 1bb from pre-flop, than bet and get called by a better hand, or check-call and get value-towned.
First: If you only raise from any position with a premium holding you are exploitable to aware players. Add in just a few weak fit or fold hands like 65s or 33. You can even try 2 napkins (Dave's saying) if you wish.

Second: Chips you put in the pot are no longer yours. They should be considered lost. As to being "pot committed" because you have so many chips already in the pot, that is only true when you cannot expect to find a better situation with your remaining stack, which is most of the time.

Last edited by TrumpinJoe; Mon May 12, 2014 at 10:23 PM..
 
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Tue May 13, 2014, 02:36 AM
(#6)
braveslice's Avatar
Since: Feb 2013
Posts: 568
Quote:
Originally Posted by TrumpinJoe View Post
First: If you only raise from any position with a premium holding you are exploitable to aware players. Add in just a few weak fit or fold hands like 65s or 33. You can even try 2 napkins (Dave's saying) if you wish.
Against limpers you don't need to do that at least NL10 and down. They don't care.
 
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Tue May 13, 2014, 02:42 AM
(#7)
braveslice's Avatar
Since: Feb 2013
Posts: 568
Quote:
Originally Posted by ArtySmokesPS View Post

As another example, let's say there are three limpers and you have K4o. If the flop comes KT7 with a flush draw, you have top pair no kicker. I would check here. If there's a bet and a call, you should fold. You're losing to most Kx hands, and are in bad shape against combo draws too. It's far better to just lose the forced 1bb from pre-flop, than bet and get called by a better hand, or check-call and get value-towned.
I would lead then shutdown and sometimes even barrel here if really lose villain calls. Do you think it's very bad?

The bet is for value and getting most of the people out of the pot. I can't really call though.
 
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Tue May 13, 2014, 07:35 AM
(#8)
TrumpinJoe's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 4,557
Quote:
Originally Posted by braveslice View Post
Against limpers you don't need to do that at least NL10 and down. They don't care.
Can you say "aware players"? They can be found in the lower staked games although they are a small minority.
 
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Tue May 13, 2014, 08:10 AM
(#9)
braveslice's Avatar
Since: Feb 2013
Posts: 568
Right, but player who limps is not one of them.

Last edited by braveslice; Tue May 13, 2014 at 08:12 AM..
 
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Tue May 13, 2014, 05:06 PM
(#10)
ArtySmokesPS's Avatar
Since: Oct 2011
Posts: 7,355
Quote:
Originally Posted by braveslice View Post
I would lead then shutdown and sometimes even barrel here if really lose villain calls. Do you think it's very bad?

The bet is for value and getting most of the people out of the pot. I can't really call though.
The problem with betting a weak top pair OOP is that you're only really getting value from draws, and if you check at any point, then you can easily get (semi-)bluffed off your hand. If you barrel, then you end up in a bloated pot with a really bad hand. You certainly can't get three streets of value from worse, so you might have to check the river and make a gut-wrenching call, knowing you only beat a bluff. Since that kind of line is both really tricky to play, and unlikely to be +EV without a read that villain bluffs with missed draws, I'd recommend beginners avoid it entirely. As I said before, in limped pots you really need something like top 2 pair if you plan on building a big pot.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TrumpinJoe View Post
First: If you only raise from any position with a premium holding you are exploitable to aware players. Add in just a few weak fit or fold hands like 65s or 33. You can even try 2 napkins (Dave's saying) if you wish.
Just my opinion, but if OP likes burning money, he should raise 65s or 33 UTG or in the blinds. If he doesn't like burning money, he should raise with strong hands, since raising those can NOT be exploited; least of all by the kind of players that limp.


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Thu May 15, 2014, 08:13 PM
(#11)
TrumpinJoe's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 4,557
The OP is asking questions that a player growing their awareness of the game should be asking. To decide on a course of action one should know the strengths and weaknesses of said action. EVERYTHING on the felt is situational. Generic situations have numerous permutations. The same approach rarely fits all.

One size fits all responses are a disservice to the educational tenets of PSO.
 
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Sat May 17, 2014, 09:58 AM
(#12)
TrumpinJoe's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 4,557
Since this site considers 10NL "advanced" the discussion of aware players seems reasonable.
 
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Sat May 17, 2014, 10:08 AM
(#13)
royalraise85's Avatar
Since: Jul 2011
Posts: 26,028
(Community Coordinator)
Quote:
Originally Posted by TrumpinJoe View Post
The OP is asking questions that a player growing their awareness of the game should be asking. To decide on a course of action one should know the strengths and weaknesses of said action. EVERYTHING on the felt is situational. Generic situations have numerous permutations. The same approach rarely fits all.

One size fits all responses are a disservice to the educational tenets of PSO.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TrumpinJoe View Post
Since this site considers 10NL "advanced" the discussion of aware players seems reasonable.
Hello Joe,

Everyone is entitled to their own opinions and are welcome to post them here.

Cheers,
Raiser


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