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Ok guys go to town.

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Ok guys go to town. - Sat May 10, 2014, 02:41 AM
(#1)
thephoenix11's Avatar
Since: Mar 2012
Posts: 186
Ok so i know this was a terrible hand but i do have 3 key questions.



1) Should i have bet my draw on the flop?
2) Was i right to call on the turn?
3) Should i have seen that on the river?

Boy i'm in for a proper ear bashing over this one
 
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Sat May 10, 2014, 03:09 AM
(#2)
craig121212's Avatar
Since: Aug 2011
Posts: 246
The biggest issue I have with this hand is you only having 40bb, it doesn't give you as much room to play with.

1. I think a 1/2 pot bet on the flop would be fine with a full stack, I think you are going to get a few calls, which will build the pot in case you do hit, and almost definitely getting more than the right odds with the expected callers. With your stack it makes the potential for the times you hit much lower.

2. The odds are almost right for you to call here, and you can expect to take more money on the river. With the caller behind you it makes the odds correct. No issue with the call here.

3. I really don't like this and I'm probably folding. Villain_4 hasn't shown much interest in the hand before now. He could just be stabbing on a scary river though I'd always be worried about him. When villain_6 raises I'm definitely folding. He has not been overly aggressive at any stage, I think a straight is very likely here, and we're chopping at best. We've actually only committed 4bb at this stage, putting another 31bb in when we're not too likely to be ahead isn't great.

Playing with a full stack and being more aggressive in the hand is the solution here in my opinion. Villain_6 isn't likely to fold at any stage here either way but when you are raised on the river after being the aggressor you can be fairly confident that villain_6 has a made hand and easily fold, all the other times when his draw doesn't hit or when he has a hand like A6 you are going to be making a fair bit of money.
 
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Sat May 10, 2014, 03:22 AM
(#3)
thephoenix11's Avatar
Since: Mar 2012
Posts: 186
Quote:
Originally Posted by craig121212 View Post
The biggest issue I have with this hand is you only having 40bb, it doesn't give you as much room to play with.
I'm well aware of the limiting effect of sitting with min buy-in. There is a sound reason for that thought.

The sound reason is far too many hands like the above. I make this kind of mistake all of the time. Both preflop and post flop. Preflop it's normall kk or QQ or AK making a raise behind 3 or 4 limpers to find one of them shove. I can't rational how you go from limp to shove so normally make the call to find myself behind to AA or KK. Post flop it's normally situations like this. A passivly played board that i've caught a piece of but not the nuts. I bet my piece to find a shove forthcoming. Not being able to figure it out i make the call to see the higher straight or the flush or whatever it happens to be.

Thanks for your imput though. So a bet on the flop would have been fine. The turn call was 50/50 really. i didn't have the odds to call when i did but the call behind made the odds up. So i should only really do that if i believe i'm going to get a call behind to make the odds up. And the river was basically a big red flag i seemed to ignore because i had a small straight.

Jees need to do some serious work on this.
 
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Sat May 10, 2014, 06:28 AM
(#4)
baud2death's Avatar
Since: Nov 2012
Posts: 1,249
BronzeStar
Preflop is standard
Flop is perfect IMHO, you are out of position with a draw 4 other players and an Ace, your hand isn't made and this could become very sticky if you bet here.
Turn isn't good for you, it makes you bottom pair but also counterfeits your 4 with the straight draw, now anyone else who has a 5 also has the same straight draw you have.. so effectivly you have a pair of 4s here unless the river gets lucky for you. I personally put your opponent here on a pair that isn't an AA, such as 6s or 7s, or 88.. 99-AA i would have expected a raise so possbily K7s. I would fold here if we put our opponent on a pair we can't beat.
River, you were right to call here, rather than raise (which can be someones instinct when they have the 2nd nuts) since you have a straight but you have the bottom end of it. As to calling the bet itself, you have a strong hand.. there are only 2 hands that can beat you (5-9/9-T) so this is a spot where you can very much be ahead.
 
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Sat May 10, 2014, 07:04 AM
(#5)
mytton's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 181
Quote:
Preflop it's normall kk or QQ or AK making a raise behind 3 or 4 limpers to find one of them shove. I can't rational how you go from limp to shove so normally make the call to find myself behind to AA or KK.
Hi Phoenix,

Just wanted to take up this point. You are saying that calling a limp/shove normally loses yet you keep doing it. If your read is that the shove is with AA or KK then why call with QQ? I know it's hard to fold strong looking hands, but at some point you have to trust your read and make the play accordingly.

I entirely agree with you that limp/shoving makes little sense but that those who do it usually do turn over QQ or better. If someone limp/shoves repeatedly, or does it and shows a much weaker hand (even in a hand you are not involved in), make a note, so next time you can call them down. Otherwise you should trust the read you made, and fold the strongish hands that are very likely beaten. You have done the analysis in this situation, now you have to trust this and make the plays accordingly. It will save you money. And help you play with a full stack without fear.
 
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Sat May 10, 2014, 09:25 AM
(#6)
JWK24's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 24,846
(Super-Moderator)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by craig121212 View Post
The biggest issue I have with this hand is you only having 40bb, it doesn't give you as much room to play with.
I agree. When playing a ring game, I always buy-in for the table max and always wait for the BB.

John (JWK24)


Super-Moderator



6 Time Bracelet Winner


 
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Sat May 10, 2014, 09:45 AM
(#7)
awmm83's Avatar
Since: May 2013
Posts: 142
I really can't see the sense in waiting for the bb at lowest stakes. Pay it and get cracking. It you have no HUD, then you could argue that you want to observe the table. That's fine. But, with a HUD I'm paying an extra 2 or 5 cents or whatever.
Believe this, I find my big leaks are post flop with spr for top pair and overrating ak , qq , preflop. Paying in won't even scratch the surface.
Sent from my HTC Rhyme S510b using Tapatalk 2
 
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Sat May 10, 2014, 09:59 AM
(#8)
JWK24's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 24,846
(Super-Moderator)
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Paying extra blinds cuts into a player's win rate. In a game where the win rates for most players are small.. over time, paying the extra blinds will be a huge drag on a player's bankroll.

John (JWK24)


Super-Moderator



6 Time Bracelet Winner


 
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Sat May 10, 2014, 10:17 AM
(#9)
awmm83's Avatar
Since: May 2013
Posts: 142
I forget people are at different phases of learning. If I sounded arrogant, it wasn't intentional. My posts come from a good place. I have suffered

Sent from my HTC Rhyme S510b using Tapatalk 2
 
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Sun May 11, 2014, 03:11 AM
(#10)
thephoenix11's Avatar
Since: Mar 2012
Posts: 186
Quote:
Originally Posted by baud2death View Post
Flop is perfect IMHO, you are out of position with a draw 4 other players and an Ace, your hand isn't made and this could become very sticky if you bet here.

River, you were right to call here, rather than raise
So checking with so many opps in the hand was correct? ok what about say if it was 1 opp? would a bet be better?.
Also you think i was right to call? This happens to me quite a lot so i'm confused. Is the long run play profitable? After the hand i was kicking myself saying i should have known and folded.
 
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Sun May 11, 2014, 03:14 AM
(#11)
thephoenix11's Avatar
Since: Mar 2012
Posts: 186
Quote:
Originally Posted by mytton View Post
Hi Phoenix,

Just wanted to take up this point. You are saying that calling a limp/shove normally loses yet you keep doing it.
Yes i keep doing it. Because of the level and the standard of play, Then every now and again i'm rewarded with the view of some rediculous steal attempt. By far it's nowhere near enough reward to cover the calls that lose but somehow it's just enough for me to keep convincing myself.

Also it's kinda that circle of disbelief with the frequency that it happens

I'm working on it and i'm trying to nail it down that i gotta think about long term profit.
 
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Sun May 11, 2014, 03:19 AM
(#12)
thephoenix11's Avatar
Since: Mar 2012
Posts: 186
Quote:
Originally Posted by awmm83 View Post
I really can't see the sense in waiting for the bb at lowest stakes.
Can't disagree more with this. It's preparation for the big stakes for one. 9 out of 10 tables i have to wait 2 or more hands for the blinds to come around. So that's 9bb's given away for pretty much no reason. The chances of hitting a profitable hand in those 2-7 extra hands that bb might get me is negligable. Plus if i do it at nl2, i could be down at this level for more than a year. by that time it is habbit and if by chance i make it to nl50 or nl100 than there's a habbit that's gonna be hard to reverse.
Best start as you mean to go on. Plus the wait could give me an extra tell or two before i start .

The problem at nl2 is so many people think of it as pittence and pointless trying and i think that's why i'm finding it hard to climb up but with enough patience and doing it properly from the beginning And of course a lot more learning i'll get it nailed eventually

P.S. Now i just gotta nail my addiction to smiley's
 
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Sun May 11, 2014, 06:18 AM
(#13)
awmm83's Avatar
Since: May 2013
Posts: 142
A limp shove is really a fold for under 15 bb unless you know they're bonkers. When I started sng's I used to pull that off with qq + all the time.
Ps smillies are cool
And keep waiting for the bb . I'm loose. Ignore me .
Sent from my HTC Rhyme S510b using Tapatalk 2

Last edited by awmm83; Sun May 11, 2014 at 06:20 AM..
 
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Sun May 11, 2014, 02:46 PM
(#14)
thephoenix11's Avatar
Since: Mar 2012
Posts: 186
hehe when i think on i really should be folding it as my commital before hand is only usually 3-6 bbs. Turning it into 40%bb's on a single hand is pretty dumb pre-flop without AA's so i jst gotta put br before my need to fight it.

 

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