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At what point in hand should I have folded?

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At what point in hand should I have folded? - Sat May 10, 2014, 08:35 AM
(#1)
adikumar2010's Avatar
Since: Mar 2011
Posts: 1,094
It Saturday Micro $3.30.

I don't think flatting his min check-raise on the flop is good option either I am beat on flop or I beat him on flop. So I don't want to see turn cards if he has Queen, flush draw money is going on the flop. But if they have set then I need to fold to there min 4-bet, if not to min 2-bet.

Question is at what point in the hand should I have folded?



STATS :
 
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Sat May 10, 2014, 09:44 AM
(#2)
baud2death's Avatar
Since: Nov 2012
Posts: 1,249
BronzeStar
Fear the check-raise!

I don't fear it enough and i really should.

If you are being check-raised either the opponent is loose (and he will try this again when you have a monster so you can crush) or he has the goods.

I can't see any Queen hand here check-raising, the only hands i set are 2 pair or a set.
2 pair is less likely since I don't see many people with Q6/Q2/62 unless very loose
I put my opponent on a set there, either 6s or 2s.

I am only ahead vs a bluff here and whilst his stats show he likes to play pots a lot, he is 67/13 which is classic fish rather than LAG behaviour. If he was aggressive bluffing, he would likely be aggressive PRF as well which he clearly isn't.

I have to have a really good read on someone to put them on a check-raise bluff and if i don't i will typically believe them. Why force it with just a pair?
 
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Sat May 10, 2014, 10:08 AM
(#3)
jokr02's Avatar
Since: Dec 2013
Posts: 82
i will go busto here every time
 
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Sat May 10, 2014, 10:25 AM
(#4)
awmm83's Avatar
Since: May 2013
Posts: 142
Have you heard of belugas theorem. He wrote easy book. I'd recommend it. He states a check raise on the turn is always a bad sign. He was just a poster on another forum. Nobody famous . His theorem is so true , he's now immortalised in the world of poker.

Sent from my HTC Rhyme S510b using Tapatalk 2
 
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Sat May 10, 2014, 11:52 AM
(#5)
adikumar2010's Avatar
Since: Mar 2011
Posts: 1,094
Quote:
Originally Posted by awmm83 View Post
Have you heard of belugas theorem. He wrote easy book. I'd recommend it. He states a check raise on the turn is always a bad sign. He was just a poster on another forum. Nobody famous . His theorem is so true , he's now immortalised in the world of poker.

Sent from my HTC Rhyme S510b using Tapatalk 2

I thought Beluga's theorem is applicable to one pair hand and it on turn-check raise. Although this is not the situation here, we got all-in on the flop only.
 
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Sat May 10, 2014, 11:56 AM
(#6)
adikumar2010's Avatar
Since: Mar 2011
Posts: 1,094
Quote:
Originally Posted by baud2death View Post
Fear the check-raise!

I don't fear it enough and i really should.

If you are being check-raised either the opponent is loose (and he will try this again when you have a monster so you can crush) or he has the goods.

I can't see any Queen hand here check-raising, the only hands i set are 2 pair or a set.
2 pair is less likely since I don't see many people with Q6/Q2/62 unless very loose
I put my opponent on a set there, either 6s or 2s.

I am only ahead vs a bluff here and whilst his stats show he likes to play pots a lot, he is 67/13 which is classic fish rather than LAG behaviour. If he was aggressive bluffing, he would likely be aggressive PRF as well which he clearly isn't.

I have to have a really good read on someone to put them on a check-raise bluff and if i don't i will typically believe them. Why force it with just a pair?
Coz I thought he has flush draw or some nice queen I should have let it go when he 4-bet. Well that's not the case here as we can see the result. I want to the know overall is this a laydown vs this kind of opponent or an easy all-in!!
 
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Sat May 10, 2014, 12:00 PM
(#7)
Profess Awe's Avatar
Since: Apr 2011
Posts: 1,579
Easy 3bet jam on flop in my opinion, the two obvious sets make up a small amount of his range imo.
 
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Sat May 10, 2014, 08:44 PM
(#8)
JWK24's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 24,833
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Hi adikumar2010!

Short answer to your title... NEVER. However, there are a number of things that I'm doing differently in this hand with the bet sizes.

With KK, when it folds to me, I'm going to make a standard opening raise to 90 chips (3BB+1BB for each limper).

I see a HU flop that contains all unders with a flush draw. When the opp checks to me, here is the first difference. I'm going to make a standard value bet. Bets postflop need to be sized based on the size of the pot, number of opps and board texture. With one opp, a standard bet is 1/2 pot, so I will bet 105.. no more, no less. I need to keep all of my bets standard, as this helps to conceal the strength of my hand. Players that bet more with better hands and less with marginal ones are basically turning their cards face-up to an observant opponent... something that I need to avoid.

I then get min check/raised. With an overpair to the board, I'm going to 3-bet here. A standard 3-bet sizing is to between 3X the previous bet (720) and a pot-sized bet (if it's larger, here, it's 810). Any bet in this range is over 1/3 of my remaining stack, which means that I'll be pot-committed if I make this bet. Due to this, I have one option.. to shove.

Standard bets are the key and I do not want to make an abnormal bet or to not shove when I'm pot-committed as these are tells that the opps can pick up on.

QQ should have 3-bet me preflop, so I'm behind two hands, 22 and 66.. and if the opp has one, so be it. I want my chips in here ever single time and if they do have a set, there's nothing I can do about it.

Bankroll management is also a key factor in play here. I want my chips into this pot, so I need to make sure that I'm following good bankroll management and have 100 buy-ins in my bankroll, so I can make plays like 3-bet shoving the flop.

Hope this helps and good luck at the tables.

John (JWK24)


Super-Moderator



6 Time Bracelet Winner


 
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Sat May 10, 2014, 08:47 PM
(#9)
JWK24's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 24,833
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adikumar2010 View Post
Coz I thought he has flush draw or some nice queen I should have let it go when he 4-bet. Well that's not the case here as we can see the result. I want to the know overall is this a laydown vs this kind of opponent or an easy all-in!!
There was never a 4-bet in this hand. A 4-bet is a bet, raise, re-raise (3-bet) and then another re-raise (4-bet). To fold anywhere in this hand is a huge mistake.

John (JWK24)


Super-Moderator



6 Time Bracelet Winner


 
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Sun May 11, 2014, 07:21 AM
(#10)
adikumar2010's Avatar
Since: Mar 2011
Posts: 1,094
Quote:
Originally Posted by JWK24 View Post
There was never a 4-bet in this hand. A 4-bet is a bet, raise, re-raise (3-bet) and then another re-raise (4-bet). To fold anywhere in this hand is a huge mistake.

John (JWK24)
Thanks for the advice, next time I will try to post the hand without the opponent's hand to get better answer from every member.

He did 4-bet me if you watch the flop action closely: I 1-bet, he 2-bet min, I 3-bet, then he 4-bet min & I 5-bet jam.

Last edited by adikumar2010; Sun May 11, 2014 at 07:24 AM..
 
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Sun May 11, 2014, 12:13 PM
(#11)
JWK24's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 24,833
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The key is the bet sizing... when a bet makes me pot-committed, I have one play if I want to bet.. to shove. Making abnormal bets is a tell to the opps.

John (JWK24)


Super-Moderator



6 Time Bracelet Winner


 

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