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[2nl 6max zoom] AA against flop shove

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[2nl 6max zoom] AA against flop shove - Sat May 10, 2014, 09:15 PM
(#1)
craig121212's Avatar
Since: Aug 2011
Posts: 246


Is this an easy fold?

What about at 100bb instead of 200?
 
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Mon May 12, 2014, 09:07 AM
(#2)
UrGetinTaxed's Avatar
Since: Jan 2010
Posts: 189
you need info on villain here, your ahead of JJ-KK, but does villain 3 bet these hands pre?

Looks like villain has hit a set, wich you have about 10% equity, against flush draws i think you have about 60% equity, but would villain shove a flush draw here this deap against 2 people?

I'd just fold here too especially this deep.

Against 100bb stacks, its the same you really nead to know villain here does he 3 bet big pocket pairs here pre. i think with money invested your basically flipping against flush draws, but crushed against sets.and you have 87% equity against JJ-KK.

Villain 1 still has to act aswell making the shove look very strong. even 100bbs deep, i think maybe fold, unless you know villain is mad fish.

Im not pro tho btw, just cought me playing around with pokerstove so i could be totally wrong.!
 
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Mon May 12, 2014, 10:16 AM
(#3)
awmm83's Avatar
Since: May 2013
Posts: 142
I would shove AA preflop PRECISELY because of situations like this.
You need to bet more on the flop . SPR on flop is 7,
Some might say you were pot commited. It's a grey area.
I think villain has an overpair .
Sets usually strike later in hand. 3 bet pot I worry less about draws. It's right on the button for set mining and players don't usually stack off 200BB with TP. It's hard to tell. Arrrrgggghh!

Last edited by awmm83; Mon May 12, 2014 at 10:25 AM..
 
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Mon May 12, 2014, 10:18 AM
(#4)
baud2death's Avatar
Since: Nov 2012
Posts: 1,249
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Its Zoom so its very likely this is someone set mining shoving.
I have seen it many times on Zoom, you would think that this loses value since who is calling a shove like this but in Zoom there are plenty of players that are holding out for premium raising hands like Aces that shoving here gets called.

If this was regular ring game then I would say judge the stats but its Zoom so you can't do that.

You have a 6% chance of being dealt a pair and a 12% chance of flopping a set.
So out of 150 hands, 9 of them will be a pair, 1 of those will be a set

How long do you think it takes to cycle 150 hands in Zoom? Not that long so if you run that strategy, in a raised pot there is the likelihood to be against a big overpair a lot of the time so if you shove, you will get called a lot of the time.
 
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Mon May 12, 2014, 10:26 AM
(#5)
awmm83's Avatar
Since: May 2013
Posts: 142
Quote:
Originally Posted by baud2death View Post
Its Zoom so its very likely this is someone set mining shoving.
I have seen it many times on Zoom, you would think that this loses value since who is calling a shove like this but in Zoom there are plenty of players that are holding out for premium raising hands like Aces that shoving here gets called.

If this was regular ring game then I would say judge the stats but its Zoom so you can't do that.

You have a 6% chance of being dealt a pair and a 12% chance of flopping a set.
So out of 150 hands, 9 of them will be a pair, 1 of those will be a set

How long do you think it takes to cycle 150 hands in Zoom? Not that long so if you run that strategy, in a raised pot there is the likelihood to be against a big overpair a lot of the time so if you shove, you will get called a lot of the time.
I have 1k + hands on some regs at zoom
 
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Mon May 12, 2014, 10:29 AM
(#6)
baud2death's Avatar
Since: Nov 2012
Posts: 1,249
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Good point, if you have stats then at least you can judge if this is the type of guy to run this play

But that being said, you are still suffering a lot of bingo, monster/or/fold players out there and its a completely different variance than regular ring games

I would judge Zoom just like I judge 6-way pots, a lot more likely to be behind to a monster.. its sad but it means that you are playing monster hands vs fish, without the fish you are either getting folds or suffering cooler vs -1 nut hand
 
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Mon May 12, 2014, 10:35 AM
(#7)
awmm83's Avatar
Since: May 2013
Posts: 142
Before I heard about SPR I used to fold to EVERY check raise in zoom unless they had a suspicious check raise %.
I was actually doing pretty good at 5nl zoom. Since I knew about SPR my results have plummeted and I've tilted a lot.
Much torture. I would advise a fold as default.
 
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Mon May 12, 2014, 10:42 AM
(#8)
awmm83's Avatar
Since: May 2013
Posts: 142
Quote:
Originally Posted by baud2death View Post
Good point, if you have stats then at least you can judge if this is the type of guy to run this play

But that being said, you are still suffering a lot of bingo, monster/or/fold players out there and its a completely different variance than regular ring games

I would judge Zoom just like I judge 6-way pots, a lot more likely to be behind to a monster.. its sad but it means that you are playing monster hands vs fish, without the fish you are either getting folds or suffering cooler vs -1 nut hand
6 max Zoom is a lot about reading bet sizes. Pot = bad. Anything below half is getting raised. And reading the board too. People do chase. Calling is generally a weak play. You just have to follow that board and have the stupidity to keep barreling ! Scary!
 
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Mon May 12, 2014, 10:46 AM
(#9)
baud2death's Avatar
Since: Nov 2012
Posts: 1,249
BronzeStar
Quote:
Originally Posted by awmm83 View Post
Before I heard about SPR I used to fold to EVERY check raise in zoom unless they had a suspicious check raise %.
I was actually doing pretty good at 5nl zoom. Since I knew about SPR my results have plummeted and I've tilted a lot.
Much torture. I would advise a fold as default.
Imagine you are in a ring-game and playing against an opponent that is showing 0 hands played out of 100. When he gets involved, you are instantly thinking "AA" right?

So all that means is that your opponent has to fold 100 hands before you will give him credit for Aces.
In Zoom, opponents are doing JUST that, folding out anything but Aces but without changing our mentality of how Zoom works, we still think its an average opponent with just a fair chance of having Aces just like anyone else.

For me, I am assuming every opponent in Zoom has the nuts if they bet into me. Unless I am holding the nuts myself. It is for this reason that I prefer not to play Zoom anymore as unless I have a tactic to be on the positive side of these obvious cooler situations, i am fish
 
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Mon May 12, 2014, 11:04 AM
(#10)
awmm83's Avatar
Since: May 2013
Posts: 142
22+ATs+AJo+KQ (11%)
22+AT+KJ+ (13%)
22+A6s+A9o+J9+T8s+87o+65s+ (28%)
22+A2+J7s+J8o+97+54+ (45%)


My microstakes zoom range. As you can see , plenty of hands.
If I spot low fold to steal or high 3 bet at table I'll tighten up steals.
But noone is watching your game every hand so I'll open 9 x out of 10.
 
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Mon May 12, 2014, 11:40 AM
(#11)
bhoylegend's Avatar
Since: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,261
I actually think this is a pretty trivial fold.

My only concern is that due to the weak looking cbet that villain is shoving over us with a worse overpair. Had we continued for a proper sizing 60-70% of flop and he shoved on us then its pretty much an insta-fold. He's shoving in to two people who have shown an interest in the flop.

I'm thinking he as two pair or a set all the time here.
 
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Mon May 12, 2014, 02:21 PM
(#12)
craig121212's Avatar
Since: Aug 2011
Posts: 246
A lot to reply to here and I'll probably miss out a bunch. I thought folding was correct but I would have been hard pressed to fold at 100bb.

I'll need to read up on SPR, but I definitely thinking shoving AA preflop is always a mistake, people just fold way too often. Even if they call at 2nl you never have tough postflop spots with hands like this in order to learn what to do, because you're going to need to know at higher stakes.

The slightly less than half pot bet was actually in the hope that they'll both come along for the ride.

I didn't have stats on the players so they're probably not regulars.

Some of you are really simplifying zoom as well, people aren't just folding everything but premiums, and they aren't only betting with the nuts.

My zoom range is pretty wide, UTG and MP are similar to awmm83 above, but if it gets folded to me on the cutoff or button, I'm probably opening >50% of hands. My range to continue if someone opens before me is much closer to my range from previous positions though, unless there are multiple people or small bets then I might be playing suited aces or suited connectors.
 
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Mon May 12, 2014, 02:30 PM
(#13)
bhoylegend's Avatar
Since: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,261
Quote:
Originally Posted by craig121212 View Post

The slightly less than half pot bet was actually in the hope that they'll both come along for the ride.
I think I have said something in reply to this before in one of your hands, but using population assumptions (Meaning using the average player at the level rather than just the one opponent) they are coming along anyway if you bet to a regular size rather than making it easy for them to continue with correct odds.

Maybe one of them folds but AA is a one pair hand best played out in heads-up pots or two at most, the more people in there, the less chance it has of being the best hand at the river.

This hand is still a fold though whenever he shoves multi-way, unless you have a read that he goes insane so deep.
 

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