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10NL AA facing flop raise but weak barrelling

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10NL AA facing flop raise but weak barrelling - Mon May 12, 2014, 11:35 AM
(#1)
bhoylegend's Avatar
Since: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,261


Villain is 20/11 3bet twice in 24 opportunities and 2.0 AgF.

I wouldn't always play the hand this way hence why I am posting this.

Pre is standard.

Flop, its unlikely he has 77 or 7x that makes much sense apart from from suited connectors or suited A hands. 22 is a possibility though as people set-mine from any position with any hand and often, for any price. However, I elect just to call the raise.

Turn, 66 isn't a concern, I felt there was next to no chance of him having that as it isn't playing the flop for a raise we can assume.

River, 2, I think this is a pretty amazing card for my hand. It makes it much less likely he has 22. His river bet is tiny, throughout the hand I felt it was most likely he had an overpair to the board that was obviously worse than mine.

I elect to shove over his bet, I thought I was ahead, I am often ahead against badly played 88-JJ. I tend to discount QQ and KK here as I would think he would 3bet that.

Its a strange line I took so just looking for some comments. In general, I am normally happy to get it in on the flop with this board and action.
 
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Mon May 12, 2014, 12:15 PM
(#2)
Paddy Gar's Avatar
Since: Apr 2010
Posts: 439
I like the way you played the hand Bhoy.

I think villain can have some qq here, who knows SOME villains flat kings hoping for a squeeze or trapping. By calling the flop you keep medium strength p.pairs that villain may raise flop with in the pot. He may fold these to a shove on flop so wp imo.

Considering board run out this is a great value shove imo. Villain will call off here with a lot of worse hands. There just isn't that many 7x combos he can flat profitably pre flop anyways in mp vs an utg open. I'd shove here too expecting to get calls from 99/KK....lol if he has 22/77 and c/raised that flop.
 
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Mon May 12, 2014, 12:50 PM
(#3)
Low Rated's Avatar
Since: Mar 2012
Posts: 114
I like your line up to the river. Were I in the villains shoes anything but /7x is going into the muck vs a CRAI OTR of a double paired board.

You could get it in OTF and see worse overpairs come along a lot more than you would run into 22.
 
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Mon May 12, 2014, 01:00 PM
(#4)
bhoylegend's Avatar
Since: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,261
Quote:
Originally Posted by Low Rated View Post
I like your line up to the river. Were I in the villains shoes anything but /7x is going into the muck vs a CRAI OTR of a double paired board.

You could get it in OTF and see worse overpairs come along a lot more than you would run into 22.
Do you think the average 10NL villain, who appears kind of fishy by virtue of stack size and gap between VPIP/PFR, is getting away from most overpairs here?

If I gave him credit for being competent I wouldn't have shoved as I wouldn't think I could get called by worse.
 
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Mon May 12, 2014, 02:12 PM
(#5)
Low Rated's Avatar
Since: Mar 2012
Posts: 114
Quote:
Originally Posted by bhoylegend View Post
Do you think the average 10NL villain, who appears kind of fishy by virtue of stack size and gap between VPIP/PFR, is getting away from most overpairs here?

If I gave him credit for being competent I wouldn't have shoved as I wouldn't think I could get called by worse.
If he cant get away from worse in a spot like this why didn't we get it in on the flop or turn? Someone who cant manage a fold with a worse hand than ours here would probably throw his money in OTF or OTT with any pair he likes. He even shows he is willing to put more money into the pot when he raises us OTF, if you know he can get it in with worse very often why are we pot controlling?
 
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Mon May 12, 2014, 02:27 PM
(#6)
geoVARTA's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 1,306
Hi bhoylegend,

I think this hand plays fairly standard up until the river. Given the board runout there's just so little they could have that beats us but also we have to think if villain will call off with an overpair that we beat. At first I was thinking just call river but against someone with 20/11 stats then there might be some thin value with a shove to get called by worse PPs. We also disguised the strength of our hand well so I don't think this kind of opponent would put us on Aces and they might just call figuring we have a busted FD and going crazy.
 
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Mon May 12, 2014, 02:57 PM
(#7)
bhoylegend's Avatar
Since: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,261
Quote:
Originally Posted by Low Rated View Post
If he cant get away from worse in a spot like this why didn't we get it in on the flop or turn? Someone who cant manage a fold with a worse hand than ours here would probably throw his money in OTF or OTT with any pair he likes. He even shows he is willing to put more money into the pot when he raises us OTF, if you know he can get it in with worse very often why are we pot controlling?
OTF and turn, he can legitimately have 22, by the river that is much less likely and coupled with his ridiculous bet sizing on the river I felt it was just an overplayed overpair that he was doing this with and that I could get called by worse.

There's was just so little in the end that I thought he could have that was beating me and would bet such a silly amount on the river.
 
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Mon May 12, 2014, 05:37 PM
(#8)
awmm83's Avatar
Since: May 2013
Posts: 142
You cannot, I repeat, cannot pot control out of position. Hero had no choice other than to c bet. The call to villains raise was however , i feel, poor. It's essentially a float. You cannot , in my experience, float out of position either. When in position sure, float mid pair. When you're out of position you really have little option other than to raise or fold.

Preflop. 6 max is the heavyweight of no limit. You can't play small ball.You need to raise 3.5 minimum Utg. There's so much set mining. So much danger in 6 max. Also, Utg is the top of your range. Maximise value. This is a bus to Value Town , right? Ranges are far looser , you have 5 active players and you're offering them 2.5:1 odds + to bust you ? Think of those implied odds !!!!!!! If on the button i'd probably call with anything decent just to punish your mistake. That's the theory of poker, right? It's essential.


On flop texture. There are no high cards on the board. Hero raises Utg. Hero missed 7 out of 10 times.As Villain, I may raise here too as it is a plus ev spot to bluff. Although as Hero I really couldn't take the risk of finding out. It's not a big pot. AA is not a big hand post flop with that SPR. It's not 2nl. $10 is a lot . Man , with my BR i might not even shove preflop.

Btw you need 1k hands minimum to have an accurate picture of opponents 3 betting tendencies . And 2 aggression in 6 max is on the tight side of optimal.

6 max really is a step towards heads up poker. It's hard ball.


Last edited by awmm83; Mon May 12, 2014 at 05:45 PM..
 
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Mon May 12, 2014, 05:50 PM
(#9)
Paddy Gar's Avatar
Since: Apr 2010
Posts: 439
Quote:
Originally Posted by awmm83 View Post
You cannot, I repeat, cannot pot control out of position. Hero had no choice other than to c bet. The call to villains raise was however , i feel, poor. It's essentially a float. You cannot , in my experience, float out of position either. When in position sure, float mid pair. When you're out of position you really have little option other than to raise or fold.

Preflop. 6 max is the heavyweight of no limit. You can't play small ball.You need to raise 3.5 minimum Utg. There's so much set mining. So much danger in 6 max. Also, Utg is the top of your range. Maximise value. This is a bus to Value Town , right? Ranges are far looser , you have 5 active players and you're offering them 2.5:1 odds + to bust you ? Think of those implied odds !!!!!!! If on the button i'd probably call with anything decent just to punish your mistake. That's the theory of poker, right? It's essential.

On flop texture. There are no high cards on the board. Hero raises Utg. Hero missed 7 out of 10 times.As Villain, I may raise here too as it is a plus ev spot to bluff. Although as Hero I really couldn't take the risk of finding out. It's not a big pot. AA is not a big hand post flop with that SPR. It's not 2nl. $10 is a lot . Man , with my BR i might not even shove preflop.

Btw you need 1k hands minimum to have an accurate picture of opponents 3 betting tendencies . And 2 aggression in 6 max is on the tight side of optimal.

6 max really is a step towards heads up poker. It's hard ball.

We all have different raise sizes depending on position. You do not have to comform to standards from any particular spot.

I'm assuming bhoy is raising this amount utg because it has worked from him through a sample to suggest he can manipulate opponents to make calling mistakes pre flop.

UTG is not the top of our range. It is the position where we raise the strongest hands because we will often play pots oop and as such need stronger holdings.

Raising this flop does not make a lot of sense in terms of extracting value. 22/77 should be calling here because it has nothing to protect against. Raising will fold out any bluffs/f.draws utg may have, losing value from when they bluff turn/ hit a flush, pair on turn.

7x may raise here worried that a spade could kill the action ott, or make it easier for overpairs to fold. It's also a bit more vulnerable than a boat. In general having a raising range here for value is just not optimal imo.

Last edited by Paddy Gar; Mon May 12, 2014 at 05:57 PM..
 
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Mon May 12, 2014, 05:58 PM
(#10)
bhoylegend's Avatar
Since: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,261
awmm83, I thank you for your comments, but there is plenty in there I disagree with.

Poker is far from a solved game, I can, and indeed did, call OOP and was very comfortable doing so. Statements like
Quote:
Man , with my BR i might not even shove preflop.
make it difficult to know if you are being serious with your comments here because that is a horrific way to play Aces for value.

Villain is unknown here, while he can have literally anything, by process of elimination we can remove unlikely holdings from his range. It's unlikely he has a 7, there are two on the flop, its unlikely, but possible, that he has 22. On the turn, he never has 66, because he isn't raising that on the flop IMO. When the river brings another 2 then it makes 22 very unlikely as well as a holding.

Very few holdings make sense by the river unless he was spewy beyond belief pre-flop. The fact that I have two Aces make it unlikely that he has A7/A2 which is one of the types of hands that a spewy villain will try and see a flop with because when they flop an A its the nuts.

I do not need to make it 3.5x at all, especially in Zoom, most people have already folded before I even get the chance to raise. With any holding I open with I am generally not trying to get everyone to fold. I want callers the majority of the time.

Most of your comments make it sound like you are scared money at the limit you are playing at?

I've been playing 10NL for about a year now (FR and then 6 max with a break of a few months while I moved to 6 max and dropped limits to adjust) and am very comfortable with getting the monies in post flop. I trust my judgement for the most part and I trusted it in this pot. I wouldn't have shoved if I didn't think I was ahead the VAST majority of the time on this run-out and with his action.

Stupid thing is, he went for thin value, re-opened the action, and got shoved on because his bet looked so weak.
 
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Mon May 12, 2014, 06:54 PM
(#11)
awmm83's Avatar
Since: May 2013
Posts: 142
On the shoving Aces, bhoy, I only play zoom. I also multitable and I need to simplify decisions. Aces are great but not part of my overall plan so I shove. The value from shoving , only in my opinion of course, outweighs the small pots won and the big pots lost by seeing a flop.

On my small ball advice, here is an interesting interview with Daniel Negreanu. Once an online fish ( not my quote), who recognised his small ball style was not effective online. Voila
http://www.******************/news/w...st-Part_52908/
Another reason ,is ,that you struggle to build a big pot OOP. You bet big, they fold. Preflop is the best place to get as much money in as possible. It's not that i'm bonkers.
I'm not trying to do anything but give you advice. The bet sizing I learned from Dan Harrington and Ryan fee. Ed Miller also endorses this. And Andrew Seidman too. I quote my source material because i have the impression you think i am trying to sabotage your game. It's honestly the foundation to move up to SSNL.

And to imply that I use pot odds, implied odds , reverse implied odds and SPR in my preflop decision making because of scared money is ludicrous , bhoy. To let speculative hands in cheap is the kind of accounting philosophy that puts you into administration with a £67 million loss in 2 years whilst operating in the lowest tiers of Scottish football. And i am being serious, because it's a very good analogy.

You imply they are spewy but 20/11 really , again in my judgement, is not spewy at all . 35-40% is spewy.7 aggression is spewy. 45%wtsd & 22% w$sd is spewy. But not 20/11/2. And you need a big sample to use your hud. It records the past. The hand is in the present. I have been guilty of playing off of my hud instead of reading the board, reading the bet size, the perceived range. It's a guide based on past occurrences, not a real time instrument.

Last edited by awmm83; Mon May 12, 2014 at 07:09 PM..
 
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Tue May 13, 2014, 01:26 AM
(#12)
bhoylegend's Avatar
Since: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,261
I also play Zoom only. Its still a ridiculous way to play Aces.

You keep mentioning 'small ball' here, that's not my style of play, I am not trying to imitate Daniel Negreanu. I like to play big pots with big hands and generally muck speculative hands unless I have the odds to play them.

I implied they looked fishy because of their stack size and because there is a growing gap between VPIP/PFR. I think I got my assessment spot on.
 
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Tue May 13, 2014, 07:23 AM
(#13)
awmm83's Avatar
Since: May 2013
Posts: 142
2.5 x is a small ball raise.It really is.
It's ok you think my play with AA is ludicrous. Many of your plays appeared ludicrous to me. This is a forum for learning, so, when i see something i think is not optimal, i say so. You don't learn if everyone says , oh, what an amazing player you are. That hand was the greatest.
 
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Tue May 13, 2014, 12:23 PM
(#14)
bhoylegend's Avatar
Since: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,261
My raise size is less than half a big blind away from the 'standard' raise size that most people make. An entire $0.04c. Wow, we're really changing the game of poker with that $0.04c, all of a sudden there are six people to a flop and my hands are just constantly getting crushed because I have invited all of these people in to play along with me. And I find it so hard to get value post flop.........

Ummmmmmmm, no, not really.

You've made a number of inaccurate assessments in your posts in hands that I have posted. Including the one that laughably seems to be calling my 'style' or four cent less than the standard raise size 'small ball'. The whole idea of playing small ball is that you get into lots of pots with more marginal hands than others and look to do so on the cheap. I simply don't do this. I'm not sure if you are confused as to the concepts of small ball poker but I simply don't play that style. I've been called out on being too ABC by Dave a number of times

I play all my starting hands for the same size, I don't look to get in cheap, I just don't see the need (And here is the important point) to get cute with raise sizes at 2-10NL. At 25NL my raise sizes conform with those of the regs that are doing well there. 3x exactly from everywhere before the button and from the button.

Quote:
And to imply that I use pot odds, implied odds , reverse implied odds and SPR in my preflop decision making because of scared money is ludicrous , bhoy.
Huh? I don't recall saying any of that in any of my posts to you. Care to point out where I have? Looks like you have just thrown a load of poker lingo into a sentence and said that is why I said you are scared money. No, you said,
Quote:
Man , with my BR i might not even shove preflop.
which is why I made my comment. Your BR should have nothing whatsoever to do with how you play a hand.
 

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