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10NL Zoom: Folding QQ Pre-flop

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10NL Zoom: Folding QQ Pre-flop - Thu May 22, 2014, 02:39 PM
(#1)
Tonk Shuffle's Avatar
Since: Jul 2011
Posts: 618
This is the very first hand that I have played against either of these villains, so there are no reads. I am new to 10NL, and find that I get 3bet too often - usually from the SB or BTN. I find it difficult to gauge whether or not the villain is getting out of line. Several times I have folded good hands pre-flop, and watched hands like ATo and 98s get it in as if I was back down at 2NL.

Sorry about posting the result, I hope it does not spoil the discussion.



When the villain, who originally opened, 5bet shoves, can we expect to see AA KK here a reasonable amount of the time? Even so, is QQ too strong to fold pre-flop? I think I would have flatted the 4bet from the blinds.
 
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Thu May 22, 2014, 02:56 PM
(#2)
Paddy Gar's Avatar
Since: Apr 2010
Posts: 439
I think without any info and new to the limit you just have to observe stack offs and generally play your own stack off ranges from the previous limit.

I think villain 1 always has aces/kings here, and s.b has some ak along with aces and kings.

Definitely not too strong to fold pre flop, pretty standard fold in this spot.

If the original raiser folds i would suggest folding against an unknown. Once you have a decent sample or have some valid info to suggest s.b can have some cold 4bet bluffs flatting/ jamming is ok. But stacking off against a probable range of KK+/AKo/AKs isnt good as we only have 40% equity. In fact if you're unknown to s.b he may even fold ak combos in this spot and have a stack off range of only KK+.
 
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Thu May 22, 2014, 02:59 PM
(#3)
bhoylegend's Avatar
Since: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,261
I think this is one of the occasions when I am snap folding QQ pre-flop. Against a cold 4bet and a 5bet shove the very best we are hoping for is that they are playing hands like JJ and AK like this (Readless) so I am very very comfortable folding here.
 
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Fri May 23, 2014, 03:00 AM
(#4)
Roland GTX's Avatar
Since: Jan 2012
Posts: 1,905
I agree with the others, the cold 4b from the bb and the ai from the original raiser are screaming stregth. Without reads, we can safely put their ranges on primarily KK, AA and AK. Folding is the best choice. AA and KK are the only hands that I would call a preflop all in with most (nearly all) of the time.

Note: you have position on the bb. Sometimes (if the original raiser folds and we have a good read on the bb) we can call with QQ and use our positional advantage postflop. Here though, you don't have a deep enough stack to make this option profitable.

There is more aggression at 10NL, until you get used to it I would suggest never calling 3b out of position and not continuing too lightly when in position.
 
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Sat May 24, 2014, 08:53 AM
(#5)
TrustySam's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 8,291
BronzeStar
$9.27 saved there - really nice fold TS!! Looks like 10nl is going well - GL GL!!
 
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Sat May 24, 2014, 01:40 PM
(#6)
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,501
(Head Trainer)
Just thought I'd pop in with a thought as there's some interesting equity here. I agree with the fold without reads vs. a cold 4b (largely sized too) from OOP and a 5b shove.

I saw some ranging for the villains that was KK/AA/AK. That's what's so interesting... if you give both villains this exact range, the equity is virtually a dead 3 way split:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 33.358% 33.21% 00.14% 1147342248 4952808.00 { QQ }
Hand 1: 33.321% 26.71% 06.61% 922806000 228201912.00 { KK+, AKs, AKo }
Hand 2: 33.321% 26.71% 06.61% 922806000 228201912.00 { KK+, AKs, AKo }

If this were their true ranges, then getting it in would be slightly +EV since there's money in the pot already so a little overlay.

The reality though is that this isn't likely their true ranges. When we're talking about a cold 4b OOP and a 5b shove, players are not always taking these actions with AK, but will (or at least are more likely to) with KK and AA respectively. So the action sequence weights them both towards the bigger pairs imo, which decreases our equity and makes getting it in bad.

Reads would be better ofc, if both players were maniacs for example then we couldn't snap it in fast enough. With no reads though, I think we made a nice fold.


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