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Why didn't I fold pre?

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Why didn't I fold pre? - Tue May 27, 2014, 09:32 AM
(#1)
adikumar2010's Avatar
Since: Mar 2011
Posts: 1,094
I knew the problem with smaller then TT's pocket pair of having terrible reverse implied unless opponent has QQ KK AA and they don't flop set. I tanked long time before calling there coz I knew this would happen, but ultimately I called coz we were deep stacked.

Considering the fact I called as I was getting not so bad odds to set mine, where did I made mistake post-flop?


Full Tilt Poker Game #34267639580: MTOPS Event #37 (Day 1c) (266270219), Table 11 - NL Hold'em - 10/20 - 18:36:41 IST - 2014/05/27 [09:06:41 ET - 2014/05/27]
Seat 1: spades60 (15,030)
Seat 2: RobbyDeePP (7,090)
Seat 3: victor205 (7,631)
Seat 4: philAlaak (7,470)
Seat 5: glevi247 (7,450)
Seat 6: Dima1280 (7,550)
Seat 7: iCouldntCareLes (7,500)
Seat 8: bezcenny (7,910)
Seat 9: adikumar2010 (7,369)
Dima1280 posts the small blind of 10
iCouldntCareLes posts the big blind of 20
The button is in seat #5
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to adikumar2010 [7d 7h]
bezcenny folds
adikumar2010 raises to 60
spades60 folds
RobbyDeePP raises to 240
victor205 folds
philAlaak folds
glevi247 folds
Dima1280 folds
iCouldntCareLes folds
adikumar2010 has 15 seconds left to act
adikumar2010 has requested TIME
adikumar2010 calls 180
*** FLOP *** [7s Qc Ac] (Total Pot: 510, 2 Players)
adikumar2010 checks
RobbyDeePP checks
*** TURN *** [7s Qc Ac] [5d] (Total Pot: 510, 2 Players)
adikumar2010 has 15 seconds left to act
adikumar2010 bets 289
RobbyDeePP calls 289
*** RIVER *** [7s Qc Ac 5d] [3d] (Total Pot: 1,088, 2 Players)
adikumar2010 has 15 seconds left to act
adikumar2010 bets 799
RobbyDeePP has 15 seconds left to act
RobbyDeePP raises to 1,900
adikumar2010 has 15 seconds left to act
adikumar2010 has requested TIME
adikumar2010 calls 1,101
*** SHOW DOWN ***
RobbyDeePP shows [Qd Qs] three of a kind, Queens
adikumar2010 mucks
RobbyDeePP wins the pot (4,888) with three of a kind, Queens
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 4,888 | Rake 0
Board: [7s Qc Ac 5d 3d]
Seat 1: spades60 didn't bet (folded)
Seat 2: RobbyDeePP showed [Qd Qs] and won (4,888) with three of a kind, Queens
Seat 3: victor205 didn't bet (folded)
Seat 4: philAlaak didn't bet (folded)
Seat 5: glevi247 (button) didn't bet (folded)
Seat 6: Dima1280 (small blind) folded before the Flop
Seat 7: iCouldntCareLes (big blind) folded before the Flop
Seat 8: bezcenny didn't bet (folded)
Seat 9: adikumar2010 mucked [7d 7h] - three of a kind, Sevens


STATS :

Last edited by adikumar2010; Tue May 27, 2014 at 09:44 AM..
 
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Tue May 27, 2014, 11:11 AM
(#2)
JWK24's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 24,809
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Hi adikumar2010!

There is a problem with this hand, but it is not preflop.

With 77 (or any other hand that I'm going to open with), I'm going to make a standard raise to 3BB+1BB for each limper (60 chips). I then get 3-bet to 240. The question now is.. do I have the correct odds to call this bet. Both stacks have over 15X the bet in them, so I'm calling and hoping to hit a 7.

I flop bottom set on a very wet board. Here is where the first problem in the hand is, as I absolutely need to make a value bet here. I have a set and can be called by much worse and need to not only start building a pot, but to price out any of the draws that the opp can have. A standard value bet for a dry board is 1/2 pot (255 chips), but with a very wet board like this where the opp can have a combo draw, I really need to bet 2/3 pot here (340).

The same thing on the turn. I need to bet 2/3 pot. I cannot bet less than this. Slowplaying hands, especially on wet board is a big problem and something that I absolutely need to avoid.

The river should be a blank and I'm now going to make another value bet of 1/2 pot. When the opp raises, I'm not calling.. I'm SHOVING! There are two hands in the deck that can beat me and both should have bet/raised the flop and turn. If they have one, so bet it and I'll make a note on them for later use in exploiting them... my chips are going into the middle.

The other problem is the bet sizings. Checking the flop says weakness, betting the turn then says pair smaller than aces and the overbet on the river doesn't make sense as the bets do not tell a consistent story. What hands could the river have helped? 24 makes no sense and 22 makes no sense.
When playing a hand of poker, I need to have all of my bets tell a consistent story. When they do not, the opps will be able to see what I'm doing very easily and will be able to act accordingly.

Honestly, I'm shocked that the opp did not raise larger on the river (I'd expect a bet in the 2500-3500 range).

Hope this helps and good luck at the tables.

John (JWK24)


Super-Moderator



6 Time Bracelet Winner


 
Old
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Tue May 27, 2014, 11:27 AM
(#3)
adikumar2010's Avatar
Since: Mar 2011
Posts: 1,094
I am happy that I lost the least amounst of chips, when rec 3-bets they usually have AA KK QQ JJ AK.

Only thing I was concered about losing value from AK, (AQ don't 3-bet usually). But when he made baby raise on river It was like he had AA or QQ which he was slowplaying, maybe I could have folded it but not for that tiny raise size. These beginners really play straight forward ABC poker and likes to slow play big hands. That's why I used time bank preflop and on river to call his raise.

I need to be cautious when having lowest set coz only thing that will pay me here is only one hand i.e. AK, rest everything in the rec's 3-betting range beats me.

I don't wanted to donk the flop and make him fold his JJ TT KK, checking I think not a bad thing to do. Coz even if he had KK he will just c-bet and then shut-down or if he has AK then he will keep barelling. Once he check the flop he either had KK JJ or AA QQ. So once he called my turn bet he can have a hand that I beat like AK KK, but river I think I could have folded to his tiny raise. I use time bank for no reason but then I end up making the call..lol.

1) I don't understand your reasoning to donk into him on all 3 streets and hoping for call when he has KK. I think if we put him on AK, check-raising flop would make him 3-bet all-in as he would likely put me on a draw and 3-bet shove with AK on flop.

2) Also you said wet, it's not wet board for his 3-betting range either he hit it hard or he missed with JJ TT KK. We are not dealing with Ivey who 3-bet KTs KJs from MP.

3) And I also don't understand your reasoning of donking on the flop after calling there 3-bet.

Last edited by adikumar2010; Tue May 27, 2014 at 11:39 AM..
 
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Tue May 27, 2014, 11:40 AM
(#4)
JWK24's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 24,809
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adikumar2010 View Post
PS: I don't understand your reasoning to donk into him on all 3 streets and hoping for call when he has KK. I think if we put him on AK, check-raising flop would make him 3-bet all-in as he would likely put me on a draw and 3-bet shove with AK on flop.
The board is so wet that I have to price out the flush and straight draws. I can get called by any ace (especially AK/AQ), club draw and a broadway draw. I do not want to try to put the opp on one particular hand.. I need to look at their entire range and all of these are well within the opp's range.

Plus, by leading the flop here, the last thing that the opp is going to put ME on, is a set. They're going to think that I have an A or a draw... which is a huge mistake. Betting the flop with a set is a play that will get more value for my hand and something that Dave also recommends in many of his live training sessions and videos. It's a play that has worked VERY well for us.

The reason for the turn bet is that I need to tell a consistent story with my bets. For example: a big ace (what the opp will probably range me with) will raise preflop and call a 3-bet. It will lead the flop. It will also lead the turn and when the river is a blank, will also value bet the river... these bets tell a very consistent story throughout the hand.

John (JWK24)


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6 Time Bracelet Winner


 
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Tue May 27, 2014, 11:49 AM
(#5)
adikumar2010's Avatar
Since: Mar 2011
Posts: 1,094
Plz see the flop closely it's locked he can't have AcKc or AcQc. two cards are on the flop already. What kind of flush draw will he have there.

* I got your point of donking with stong hand, I didnt it last night in a live cash session and got value from Ace high..lol
 
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Tue May 27, 2014, 11:51 AM
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JWK24's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 24,809
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They can have two broadway clubs..... or an A or a straight draw.


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Tue May 27, 2014, 12:06 PM
(#7)
adikumar2010's Avatar
Since: Mar 2011
Posts: 1,094
Like or or .

Can you tell me one last thing, when should we be looking to fold pairs below 99's to a 3-bet from a player.

Suppose the situation is like this, which will happen often that we raise with 55's from UTG and someone 3-bet from LP. Coz if SB or BB 3-bet then mostly they will have better hand then us, but we will have position in that case.

Just assume these will be the most likely situation :
1) The price to call his 3-bet is more then enough for us to set-mine like more then 15X. (It's level 1 or 2)
2) We are out of position.

So we can't never fold 99-, unless he is a nit right? In the above mentioned situation.
 
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Tue May 27, 2014, 12:11 PM
(#8)
JWK24's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 24,809
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It depends on the players and their tendencies, along with the stack sizes.

For the 55 example.. how is the opp playing? how often are they raising preflop? what are the stack sizes? I may call, I may jam, I may fold.

John (JWK24)


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6 Time Bracelet Winner


 

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