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Live Tourney Hand - Right Pot Odds, but awful stack sizes

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Live Tourney Hand - Right Pot Odds, but awful stack sizes - Thu May 29, 2014, 02:14 AM
(#1)
Christxof's Avatar
Since: Jul 2011
Posts: 256
This hand happened at a live tourney I played in this evening.

Blinds were at 1500/3k with a 500 ante (which is huge). I'm in the big blind with about 20k chips left, so I'm less than 7bb.

We're currently 9-handed with 17 players left, and utg+2 shoves his last 11,200 in. He had been playing moderately tight, but seeing as how he had less than 4bb left, he was desperate. It was folded to me, and I look down a 73o.

Now, 73o is an awful hand, but I quickly went over the pot-odds in my head. The pot was 9k to start with, and the shove made it 20,200, making it 8,200 for me to call - almost 2.5:1 odds, which is a call with pretty much any 2 cards. But the problem lied with the following:
1) If I DO call and lose, which would happen about 68% of the time, I'm down to 3bb, which is literally the size of the pot at this stage.
2) If I do call and win, which only happens about 32% of the time, I'm up to 13bb - which is still desperate, seeing as how the blind increments are every 20 minutes.
3) If I decide to take the nitty option and fold, I'm down to 6bb, which is a really bad spot altogether.

It was a real "Damned if I do, damned if I don't" situation. That being said, after tanking for like 2 minutes, I called, at which point everyone at the table, because none of them understand math, said it was a bad call.

But was it? I know in a cash game it's not, but in a tournament with such awkward stack sizes? What are your thoughts?
 
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Thu May 29, 2014, 09:34 AM
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JWK24's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
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Hi Christxof!

If the opp was 2.5BB or under, it's a call with ATC. However, with more chips than this, I want to be calling with about 55% of hands and 37o is not on the list, so I need to let it go.

Here's the range that I want to be calling with... 22+ Ax+ K2s+K6o+ Q2s+ Q8o+ J3s+ J8o+ T4s+ T8o+ 95s+ 97o 84s+ 86o+ 74s+ 76o 63s+ 53s+ 43s

In this type of situation, I'm mucking and looking for the first hand where I can be the first to shove (or to get a hand with equity).

Hope this helps and good luck at the tables.

John (JWK24)


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Thu May 29, 2014, 10:36 AM
(#3)
Christxof's Avatar
Since: Jul 2011
Posts: 256
Thanks JWK, but were you taking how big the antes were into consideration? Because those were huge antes.
 
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Thu May 29, 2014, 12:07 PM
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Yes, if the antes were smaller, then I'd need to be even tighter. For example, say there were no antes, then I'd only be at about 19% for a call range.

John (JWK24)


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Thu May 29, 2014, 12:39 PM
(#5)
Christxof's Avatar
Since: Jul 2011
Posts: 256
Alright then, thanks JWK. A couple more questions then:
1) Where did you get this information about calling ranges? Or was it something you developed yourself?
2) Where would I have learned the (apparently faulty) information that 2:1 pot odds preflop is good enough for a call with any 2 cards?
 
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Thu May 29, 2014, 01:23 PM
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JWK24's Avatar
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I have an MTT open-shove call chart that I use as a reference.

2:1 is the number where it's a chip EV call. However, there are two types of EV, chip and tourney EV. If I had a larger stack, then I'd be more likely to take a chance and call.. but not when calling is going to cripple me. The other thing to remember.. it takes a better hand to call with than it does to push with.

John (JWK24)


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Fri May 30, 2014, 06:59 AM
(#7)
Ready2SmashU's Avatar
Since: Mar 2014
Posts: 10
Hi Christxof,

Personally i think is bad call as in tournament any short stack will try to shove whit at least one over card and because the player is utg+2 defiantly he will have some marginal or better hand to make the shove as it need to go over more people so better cut losses and wait for better spot to put it in. What hand he had btw ?

Here is one nice chart is created for Heads Up play but can give you good perspective of the bad push and bad calls in hard spots http://www.holdemresources.net/h/poker-theory/hune.html read the section how to use the chart. But is basically for how many BB you are playing and what hand worth the risk of playing it.

btw. i forget check this software is free and really good for analysing all in situations: http://mattmazur.com/projects/all-in-expert/



Hope this helps...

Last edited by Ready2SmashU; Fri May 30, 2014 at 07:14 AM..
 
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Fri May 30, 2014, 10:41 AM
(#8)
JWK24's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 24,833
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Hi Ready2SmashU!

Please note that this software is prohibited from being used when you have the PokerStars client running. You can use it for review afterwards, but not while playing.

HERE is a list of approved and prohibited software.

John (JWK24)


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Tue Jun 03, 2014, 07:58 PM
(#9)
Christxof's Avatar
Since: Jul 2011
Posts: 256
Thanks for all the info, guys. I didn't include it because I didn't want to be results oriented, but the guy turned out to have A9o. I actually flopped a gutshot draw, but the turn and river double-paired the board.


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Thu Jun 05, 2014, 09:06 AM
(#10)
spand42's Avatar
Since: Sep 2010
Posts: 1,496
You didn't post where the bubble was and how many got paid etc. This doesn't really make a difference with this hand as I think it's just a fold as the shoving stack is just too big but it might make a difference to my decision if I had a better hand or the stack that shoved was shorter.
 
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Sun Jun 08, 2014, 01:16 PM
(#11)
Christxof's Avatar
Since: Jul 2011
Posts: 256
Hey spand. This is over, but I'll confirm that there were 17 players left and only 5 got paid.


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Wed Jun 11, 2014, 05:08 AM
(#12)
Ready2SmashU's Avatar
Since: Mar 2014
Posts: 10
Hi JWK24,

This is good to know i haven't know is have some software that is prohibited by poker stars .
But any way i don't think is good idea to use tools like this while playing as they will distract you and you will miss important information. You want to use tools like this to analyse your session after you finish playing and build mind reflexes so next time you are on the table you know this situation and know how to respond whit out thinking. And also is good to analyse live hands where you are not sure if you have do the correct thing.
 

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