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Can I call?

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Can I call? - Thu May 29, 2014, 04:28 PM
(#1)
adikumar2010's Avatar
Since: Mar 2011
Posts: 1,094
It's Shark Cage Qualifier freeroll Top 21 places paid and around 192 players were left. 5 mins blind level, turbo game full of

I only have 6BB, so can't wait for better spots. Only problem were that it was the first hand original shover was playing and one player already reshoved over his all-in

I was thinking if I can call this or should I fold?

The only reason I think I can call here coz I am too short stack to be thinking about anything here

And what if I had 15-20BB then I can fold as losing 7BB will cause massive damage to my stack or should I still be a calling there

PokerStars Hand #116850788890: Tournament #916258661, Freeroll Hold'em No Limit - Level XIII (600/1200) - 2014/05/30 1:42:37 IST [2014/05/29 16:12:37 ET]
Table '916258661 208' 9-max Seat #6 is the button
Seat 1: skory5678 (38026 in chips)
Seat 2: kecsebybag (6272 in chips)
Seat 3: ChessFace (4790 in chips)
Seat 4: 5tka2011 (28287 in chips)
Seat 5: cokeluxe (8550 in chips)
Seat 6: adikumar2010 (7456 in chips)
Seat 7: haideranderl (19219 in chips) out of hand (moved from another table into small blind)
Seat 8: RD2203 (25169 in chips)
Seat 9: lara dawn (19611 in chips)
skory5678: posts the ante 125
kecsebybag: posts the ante 125
ChessFace: posts the ante 125
5tka2011: posts the ante 125
cokeluxe: posts the ante 125
adikumar2010: posts the ante 125
RD2203: posts the ante 125
lara dawn: posts the ante 125
RD2203: posts small blind 600
lara dawn: posts big blind 1200
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to adikumar2010 [Jh Ah]
skory5678: folds
kecsebybag: folds
ChessFace: raises 3465 to 4665 and is all-in
5tka2011: folds
cokeluxe: raises 3760 to 8425 and is all-in
adikumar2010: ??
RD2203: Action Pending
lara dawn: Action Pending

STATS :
 
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Thu May 29, 2014, 05:57 PM
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JWK24's Avatar
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Hi adikumar2010!

With AJs on the button, I get a shove and re-shove in front of me. What I need to look at are the pot odds vs my hand equity. I need to call 7331 into a pot that will be 22127 (if nobody behind me plays), which is 33.1%.

Now.. do I have 33.1% equity. I will use a 33% range for the second opp, as we do have some hands on them, but we have an unknown first in. Since they are a short stack, it'd be nice to know if they got short by taking a beat (may be wider) or blinded down (may be tighter than normal).
Knowing whether these players (and the ones behind me) are loose are tight is going to be the key here.

If the initial shover is playing a range tighter than 10%.. then I do NOT have the needed equity and need to fold AJs here. If they are wider, then I do have the equity.

The key is the first player's range and since it looks like they blinded down, since no info was given otherwise.. then I have to give them credit for the tighter range and need to fold. If I had contrary information, then I'm calling.

Hope this helps and good luck at the tables.

John (JWK24)


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Thu May 29, 2014, 06:21 PM
(#3)
adikumar2010's Avatar
Since: Mar 2011
Posts: 1,094
So you mean I should fold this hand in short, right JWK as we are assuming inital shover is a nit?

Anyways I opted to shove only coz I don't want to get blinded down waiting for better hand and I was hoping the re-shover is doing with worst hand then mine as he was playing wayyy loose 41/42.

*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to adikumar2010 [Jh Ah]
skory5678: folds
kecsebybag: folds
ChessFace: raises 3465 to 4665 and is all-in
5tka2011: folds
cokeluxe: raises 3760 to 8425 and is all-in
adikumar2010: calls 7331 and is all-in
RD2203: folds
lara dawn: folds
Uncalled bet (1094) returned to cokeluxe
*** FLOP *** [Jd 7c Ks]
*** TURN *** [Jd 7c Ks] [9d]
*** RIVER *** [Jd 7c Ks 9d] [Ts]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
cokeluxe: shows [Kc Jc] (two pair, Kings and Jacks)
adikumar2010: shows [Jh Ah] (a pair of Jacks)
cokeluxe collected 5332 from side pot
ChessFace: shows [As Ac] (a pair of Aces)
cokeluxe collected 16795 from main pot
adikumar2010 finished the tournament in 192nd place
ChessFace finished the tournament in 193rd place
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 22127 Main pot 16795. Side pot 5332. | Rake 0
Board [Jd 7c Ks 9d Ts]
Seat 1: skory5678 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 2: kecsebybag folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 3: ChessFace showed [As Ac] and lost with a pair of Aces
Seat 4: 5tka2011 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 5: cokeluxe showed [Kc Jc] and won (22127) with two pair, Kings and Jacks
Seat 6: adikumar2010 (button) showed [Jh Ah] and lost with a pair of Jacks
Seat 8: RD2203 (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 9: lara dawn (big blind) folded before Flop
 
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Thu May 29, 2014, 06:35 PM
(#4)
JWK24's Avatar
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Yes, if the opp is tight, then this is a fold due to not having the correct odds to call. Number of BB is irrelevant.. if I don't have the odds to be in the hand, then I need to fold.. regardless of number of chips I have.

John (JWK24)


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Thu May 29, 2014, 07:13 PM
(#5)
adikumar2010's Avatar
Since: Mar 2011
Posts: 1,094
See I have 33% equity in pot. I give top 10% range to original shover and 33% range to 3-bet jammer.

Now I put 10% for original shover and 33% for the re-jammer in the software and I get 35.65% hand equity for myself & I only need 33% to make it a profitable call.

So can you explain now why should I still fold?

 
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Thu May 29, 2014, 07:34 PM
(#6)
JWK24's Avatar
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JWK24 View Post

If the initial shover is playing a range tighter than 10%.. then I do NOT have the needed equity and need to fold AJs here. If they are wider, then I do have the equity.

As I said.. if they're tighter than 10%, then I don't have the equity and need to fold.. wider, then I can call.

Without a read, since it looks like the opp blinded down, I have to give them credit for the tighter range and need to fold.

John (JWK24)


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Thu May 29, 2014, 07:39 PM
(#7)
adikumar2010's Avatar
Since: Mar 2011
Posts: 1,094
Now for the sake of nittiness of the original shover I tighten up his range to more superiour hands and this is what I get, still 33% hand equity with and pot odds is 33%. So exactly same both hand equity and pot odds.

 
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Thu May 29, 2014, 07:40 PM
(#8)
JWK24's Avatar
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When opps blind away to nothing before shoving, I normally give them about a 6% range... even at an 8.5% range, it's a clear fold.

John (JWK24)

at 8.5%, I have 31.8% equity
at 6%, I have 30.5% equity

both are below what is necessary to call.

P.S. Nits will not shove any pair, they'll need at least 77, if not 88 before playing. for a tight player, low pairs are not in their range and those low pairs are what is skewing your equity numbers.


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Thu May 29, 2014, 07:46 PM
(#9)
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for example, here is a 10% range... not what you used in your 10% example... 88+,A9s+,KTs+,QTs+,AJo+,KQo


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Thu May 29, 2014, 07:47 PM
(#10)
adikumar2010's Avatar
Since: Mar 2011
Posts: 1,094
Ok thanks, but the number are all very very close of what is required. So it's a close fold, just on the borderline.
 
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Thu May 29, 2014, 07:51 PM
(#11)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adikumar2010 View Post
Ok thanks, but the number are all very very close of what is required. So it's a close fold, just on the borderline.
-2.6%EV or even -1.3% at 8.5% range isn't borderline... it's a clear fold. If it was within .5%, then it would be borderline.

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Thu May 29, 2014, 08:27 PM
(#12)
666bonez187's Avatar
Since: Oct 2012
Posts: 745
just a quick question on this hand....

since the tight player has less chips.... and essentially if we beat the looser player we will still have 5332, so is it maybe a good chance to take a shot to triple up, expecting to be way ahead of the looser players range... best out come= 22127 2nd best out come= 5332 worst outcome= 0.... or fold and keep 8 bb and find a spot in a few hands?
 
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Thu May 29, 2014, 10:03 PM
(#13)
JWK24's Avatar
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 666bonez187 View Post
just a quick question on this hand....

since the tight player has less chips.... and essentially if we beat the looser player we will still have 5332, so is it maybe a good chance to take a shot to triple up, expecting to be way ahead of the looser players range... best out come= 22127 2nd best out come= 5332 worst outcome= 0.... or fold and keep 8 bb and find a spot in a few hands?
If the loose cannon and us had more chips.. I'd absolutely be in favor of playing it even just for that reason, but even if we'd beat them (will only win 60% of the time).... so I'd want to have 60% of the sidepot (my EV in the sidepot) be worth more than the stack that I have now.

Even if I know the other opp has me crushed, if I can make chips off the sidepot that would cover my losses, I'm all for playing the hand... but here there aren't enough chips to do so.

John (JWK24)


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Thu May 29, 2014, 10:58 PM
(#14)
666bonez187's Avatar
Since: Oct 2012
Posts: 745
ok thx
 
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Fri May 30, 2014, 06:05 PM
(#15)
adikumar2010's Avatar
Since: Mar 2011
Posts: 1,094
So can I call this if my stack is 9334 and I cover them both, as even if I win side pot I will breakeven.

Main pot lost 9334 - 4665(1st player stack) = 4669 chips saved, and side pot win 4669 X 2 = 9338.

4665 to lose against tight player and 4669 to win against loose player.

Am I right can I call in this situation?
 
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Fri May 30, 2014, 06:23 PM
(#16)
JWK24's Avatar
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To call for just the sidepot, I need to have 60% (my equity in the hand against the other larger stack) to equal my chip stack.... just making the sidepot equal to my stack is not enough, as I'm not going to win the sidepot 100% of the time.
I need at least 12218 chips in the sidepot.... so I need at least 10774 in my stack and the larger stack.

John (JWK24)


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Fri May 30, 2014, 06:28 PM
(#17)
adikumar2010's Avatar
Since: Mar 2011
Posts: 1,094
So you mean I should have 28000 chips, as if I lose main pot then I will have 18665 - 4665 = 23335

And 23335 X 2 = 46670. Now 60% of 46670 is 28002 (which is my starting stack)

Here how I did this :

Eq.1 : x - 4665 = y
Eq.2 : y X 2 = 2y (side pot)
Eq.3 : 2y X 0.6 (60%) = x or Eq.4 : 1.2y = x

Now putting Eq.4 into Eq.1, we get x - 4665 = y => 1.2 y - 4665 = y => 0.2y = 4665 => y = 23325

And x = y + 4665 => x = 23320 + 4665 = 27990

(x= my stack, 2y=side pot)
 
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Fri May 30, 2014, 06:55 PM
(#18)
JWK24's Avatar
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adikumar2010 View Post
So you mean I should have 28000 chips, as if I lose main pot then I will have 18665 - 4665 = 23335

And 23335 X 2 = 46670. Now 60% of 46670 is 28002 (which is my starting stack)

Here how I did this :

Eq.1 : x - 4665 = y
Eq.2 : y X 2 = 2y (side pot)
Eq.3 : 2y X 0.6 (60%) = x or Eq.4 : 1.2y = x

Now putting Eq.4 into Eq.1, we get x - 4665 = y => 1.2 y - 4665 = y => 0.2y = 4665 => y = 23325

And x = y + 4665 => x = 23320 + 4665 = 27990

(x= my stack, 2y=side pot)
No clue where the 28k is coming from....

Your starting stack was just over 7k, so I need 60% of the sidepot to be just over 7k.. which means the sidepot needs to be slightly over 12k. Take half of what the sidepot needs to be and add in the 3rd opp's stack.. and that is the stack that I would need both me and the larger stack to have.

John (JWK24)


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Fri May 30, 2014, 07:07 PM
(#19)
adikumar2010's Avatar
Since: Mar 2011
Posts: 1,094
I mean if I had 28k in my stack then I can call in this situation.

7331 was my stack. 12218 should be side pot (as 60% of 12218 is 7331)

Now, half of it is 6109, 1st shover had 4665. So my stack should be 10774

Is this correct sire?
 
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Fri May 30, 2014, 07:08 PM
(#20)
JWK24's Avatar
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28k, yes... but I'd call it with just under 11k.

John (JWK24)


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