Home / Community / Forum / Poker Education / Texas Hold'Em Cash Games /

Poll: C-Bet or Check?

View Poll Results: Good spot to c-bet?
C-bet the flop 15 68.18%
Check the flop 7 31.82%
Would prefer to c-bet the turn if it's a brick and the hand is checked around 0 0%
Voters: 22. You may not vote on this poll

Old
Question
Poll: C-Bet or Check? - Fri May 30, 2014, 05:25 PM
(#1)
TrustySam's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 8,291
BronzeStar
Hi everybody


For the past week I've been reviewing c-betting spots, and some of the spots aren't so clear.

Instead of flooding HA some of my trickier spots, thought it might be fun to give a poll a try.


Also, if anyone has any additional thoughts on the hand, please feel free to leave them down below - guess sometimes with hands that are right on the line, there's no right or wrong there's more like pluses and minuses, so ... maybe some of these spots might generate some interesting discussion ... or not


Thanks for stopping by to take a look at my tricky spot!

 
Old
Default
Fri May 30, 2014, 05:34 PM
(#2)
ArtySmokesPS's Avatar
Since: Oct 2011
Posts: 7,324
Just to get this right, you opened in the cutoff, and got flatted by the button and the big blind, right?

Also, the button only folds to c-bets 29% of the time, correct?


Bracelet Winner
 
Old
Default
Fri May 30, 2014, 05:40 PM
(#3)
TrustySam's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 8,291
BronzeStar
Yes, that's correct!


You know why I was thinking a c-bet might work in this spot is because his 3-bet rate is so high, whereas his vpip/pfr ratio and float turn rates were low - so I figured he was set-mining, and this might be one of those spots where he might actually fold to a c-bet? Or maybe not?


Also, that would mean my overs might have live outs too?

Last edited by TrustySam; Fri May 30, 2014 at 05:57 PM.. Reason: screwed up the vpip/pfr ratio - it's low not high, is it? d'oh!
 
Old
Default
Fri May 30, 2014, 05:45 PM
(#4)
TrustySam's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 8,291
BronzeStar
Did I just give away my action on the flop? D'oh!


At the table, I actually did just check for the reason you mentioned, in addition to it being a multi-way pot ... guess it wasn't until afterwards that I noticed that other stuff and started to wonder ... but maybe it was too risky a spot, not sure ...
 
Old
Default
Fri May 30, 2014, 05:52 PM
(#5)
ArtySmokesPS's Avatar
Since: Oct 2011
Posts: 7,324
I check here just about always (with about 90% of my range), regardless of the stats (which in this case make me even more likely to check).

That board completely smashes the button's range. He's hardly ever folding, so by betting you'd mostly be building a pot OOP with a hand that is pretty much always losing. That said, you have a ton of equity against hands like 2pr and sets, which makes it easy to check-call vs the button. If he routinely stabs in position when checked to, there's even an argument for check-raising your draw.

If the button bets and the BB check-raises, you can fold your king high for no loss at all.


Bracelet Winner
 
Old
Default
Fri May 30, 2014, 05:54 PM
(#6)
TrustySam's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 8,291
BronzeStar
The button had 55 ... I think the low vpip/pfr ratio was the giveaway of his range, which is something didn't pick up on until afterwards.

With his high 3-bet rate, I think he's 3-betting with a wider (merged) range into the cut-off?


Wonder if maybe a delayed c-bet on the turn might have been the best option of all, since like you mentioned, his float flop bet is so high - and here he just checked behind?
 
Old
Default
Fri May 30, 2014, 06:14 PM
(#7)
ArtySmokesPS's Avatar
Since: Oct 2011
Posts: 7,324
If he checks behind on the flop, then he usually has marginal showdown value, such as one pair (9x/8x/underpairs), which means you're probably good if you hit a king or jack, as well as a queen. Getting to the turn for free against a weak range seems like a good thing to me.

Don't forget about the BB though. His range can be strong on this board too.

The board is so dynamic that the best turn action really depends on which card comes and whether the BB leads out. A delayed c-bet on a blank (or a king) is probably good. If it's a middling card (or even a jack), then checking again is likely to be best, but I'm unsure. I'm not sure if you can rep trips or a slow-played boat if the board pairs.


Bracelet Winner
 
Old
Default
Sat May 31, 2014, 02:26 AM
(#8)
GamblingProp's Avatar
Since: Jan 2013
Posts: 714
I cbet there almost always.
We block a lot of straights with our J and the majority of the times people will have second/third pair, ace high, which we can make to fold on that flop.
And even if we get called, we probably have 7 outs to improve.
 
Old
Default
Sat May 31, 2014, 08:06 AM
(#9)
TrustySam's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 8,291
BronzeStar
The poll's changed, now I'm on the fence again - d'oh!


So lately I've been doing HH reviews after every session, and even though I've been trying to stop bluffing ... so much (), sometimes they still seem to happen And some of them have been working ... but some of them haven't ...


That's a really great point you added arty, about it being important to have my hand represent something, if deciding to bet the turn instead. It's always seemed like yeah, to bluff profitably in the long-run might require being able to be aware of how our range looks to the villain? Like, bluffing in a +EV way seems to require more advanced skills, not less?


And then that's something I've just started to do, which you did GP - think specifically about what sorts of hands the villain might fold in the face of a c-bet. That would seem to be a key skill to have as well, to know if betting the turn might better than checking.


Wonder how this spot'll look to me after working on those skills some more. Also, sometimes I still struggle with ranging of some of those less common villain types like the laggy reg, and casuals - hopefully that'll improve with time as well.

Also ... wonder if bluffs might tend to work more often on wet boards or dry boards? In position or out of position? Versus regs or casuals? Or does it mostly come down to ranging?


Always so much to learn with poker


Thanks so much for stopping by to share your thoughts on the hand - such great points, thanks!!
 
Old
Default
Sat May 31, 2014, 08:16 AM
(#10)
TrustySam's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 8,291
BronzeStar
Maybe if I were a better player and would know if c-betting on any street is a good idea, I'd make one - but right now, I kind of like arty's idea to just stick to value on the turn (for me) ... guess you can never go wrong with that
 
Old
Default
Sat May 31, 2014, 11:44 AM
(#11)
Grade b's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 3,604
I think here against 2 villains with the button only folding to c-bets 29% of the time,and we have never seen the bb donk out, I check...unless these too gave seen me check a lot in recent hands (ie whats my current table image and does either villain care!!!)

Grade b


I am always ready to learn although I do not always like being taught. ~Winston Churchill

13 Time Bracelet Winner


 
Old
Default
Sat May 31, 2014, 12:05 PM
(#12)
Sandtrap777's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 3,310
Numbers I don't care, what about notes on those players?
The way I see it, Small bet = fishing for a straight, Medium bet = I got something and large bet = bluffing
So for me it's a definite CBet of $0.65. (medium bet) (of course depending on the notes) and then fold to raise or check fold on the turn.
Sure you've got 8 outs and I would add an extra 6 outs for K's and J's.

Think about it this way, sometimes you want to Bluff with garbage, well this situation is more advantageous. I would rather make a small Bluff here than have to make a bigger Bluff on the river, the cost is much cheaper here.

Checking is also not bad, by checking, you can call a bet, which would come out to the same, except that it looks like you're calling to see another card hoping to catch a straight (fishing). Doing it that way kind of says what you have.

Just my 2 cents
 
Old
Default
Sat May 31, 2014, 06:14 PM
(#13)
TrustySam's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 8,291
BronzeStar
Hey Grade b, Sandtrap!!


@grade b
- looking at the villains' stats, am thinking the bb probably thinks im a maniac, and the button probably thinks im a nit ... guess everything's relative

My game's not very complicated - mostly I try to stick to betting with equity, so if I were to check in this spot, it'd be because I'm pretty much giving up on the hand. Although I do c-bet draws, so maybe my bet wouldn't necessarily get credit from the button?

Guess these are the kinds of questions we need to be asking ourselves when we start to think about how our range must look to opponents - hadn't thought about any of that before you asked

Gosh, there's so much to think about at the tables - can't believe I used to read online magazines *while* grinding



@sandtrap - looks like I may have made a note that ... made sense at the time, that doesn't any more

Had the button tagged as an aggressive re-raiser, with the following note:
Quote:
reraised the river, then folded to my reraise - wonder what they folded - it was only $3.50 to call

Thought my note-taking had gotten really good - guess because I've gotten lazy about checking notes, I may have gotten lazy about making notes too ... it was on my list of things to review, but that list has gotten so long lately ... not sure about the particulars of the hand.

Some more really fantastic points I never considered - about optimal bet timing and sizing. Like while maybe a $0.65 c-bet might work, a $0.50 one or a $0.75 might not ... because anyone else on a draw might wind up just calling the cheaper one, and what hand would really bet $0.75 in this spot? *Maybe* like, JTs, if that?

And then I hadn't thought about how bluffs might be more costly on a later street ... when equity is worse - so yeah maybe the time to make the c-bet would be on the flop after all.

And then that last point's a really good one - about how check-calling might make it harder to get paid off by 2pr or sets if our draw hits, since it looks like we were drawing, hoping for our draw to hit. Also, I forgot about the four 7's as being outs - had more equity than I realized.

Thanks so much for stopping by with the advanced higher-level thought processes Sandtrap!!


Wow, everyone's made such fantastic points - wasn't even sure if anyone was going to stop by, and instead wound up learning a ton. Really appreciate everyone taking the time to share your insights ... hope everyone else has found the discussion interesting as well

Last edited by TrustySam; Sat May 31, 2014 at 06:27 PM..
 
Old
Default
Sat May 31, 2014, 07:18 PM
(#14)
Sandtrap777's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 3,310
Quote:
Originally Posted by TrustySam View Post
Thanks so much for stopping by with the advanced higher-level thought processes Sandtrap!!
No problem Sam, I do like to help sometimes...lol

As you can see, my thought process is more than just numbers (I mean more than HUD numbers). The betting process, when to make a move, how much, what are my the next moves (plan), board texture, number of players involved, stack sizes and of course my notes. The only numbers are the odds and outs

I'm not always right, but I will minimize my risk. Sure it's a gambling game, but there's no need to gamble every hand and when I do gamble, I usually have a possibility to win.

Remember, it's better to win a little than loosing a lot. If you do want to gamble (BLUFF) and lose a lot, just make sure you won lots of little...lol

GL
 
Old
Default
Sat May 31, 2014, 09:50 PM
(#15)
Profess Awe's Avatar
Since: Apr 2011
Posts: 1,579
I auto clicked "check" after seeing your hand, not having position, the flop (villain's range much? ) and it being 3 way. Then I read some more posts here and got to thinking we do smack this flop ourselves a significant minority of the time.
When I am in this spot, I have 35combos of 2 pair or better. I might want to check raise some of these, or possibly check call. But lets assume most are going to cbet all these strong made hands, surely we should be balancing these value bets with some bluffs? I don't know how often we should be bluffing here when we cbet, but I think we should at least some of the time. KJ strikes as a very good hand to have as a bluff balancing fat value, particularly KJs with backdoor flush draws but probably KJo too.

So err, I am less sure now and would be thrilled if anyone has thoughts around how often we should be cbet bluffing here compared to the value. Of course here is rather unique. If I interpret the abbreviations right, button folds to cbets 29% and floats 100% - these are some pretty critical numbers to bear in mind when deciding what to do with our range on this less than desirable board for hero.

Its an even more compelling reason to be checking a lot. Therefore I can imagine a large proportion of check calls here that are one pair - they should not all be draws and I would not interpret a check call OOP in a multiway pot as a surefire draw.
 
Old
Default
Sat May 31, 2014, 11:40 PM
(#16)
Paddy Gar's Avatar
Since: Apr 2010
Posts: 439
I like betting here. You have as many strong combos on this board as button does. I would bet KJ, sets, kq with bdoor draw here. If we're called in two spots obviously giving up unless we improve. If we're HU with bb ott prob check back if unimproved.

When we're called twice on this board expect a lot of pairs plus draws. So betting the river should be a good play if called twice. When you think about it villain wont fold flop or turn with a pair and a draw but should be folding river.

Probably checking overpairs, j10, dunno depends how stabby this guy is. Checking monsters too if the guy will bet at this flop texture all day ip.

We block qj also which helps.

I think my main point here is that you need to decide whether you're prepared to triple, because i dont expect anything that calls flop to fold turn. Button looks like the type to float this board a ton, but given it's 3 way he may play a bit more honest.

Main reason i like betting, is check calling makes it hard to get paid when a 7/Q hits. There's so many jacks in a check/callers range on this board.

If the flop was two tone and I raised in earlier position I'd check almost everything on the flop. Not the co though.

If you bet this flop texture, you have to think about the hands you bet for value. If it's only 2 pair plus, it makes sense to have combinations of semi bluffs so you're not only nut peddling when you bet. Best candidates are KJ and KQ as they block some of villains strongest combinations.

Last edited by Paddy Gar; Sun Jun 01, 2014 at 02:18 AM..
 
Old
Default
Sun Jun 01, 2014, 09:45 AM
(#17)
TrustySam's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 8,291
BronzeStar
@Sandtrap - it's been my thinking since forever, that someday when I get better, it'll be possible to bluff more. Not sure where that idea came from, because maybe it's the opposite - and when I get better, will find out that bluffing's not needed at all when one gets better.

Hopefully the answers to these sorts of questions will be answered some day soon - am currently on track to start working on hand planning around September, 2017, so like yeah ... am getting there .....


@Profess - now check sounds not so bad again

That's true, a lot of people would check-call in that spot with sets, 2-pr, and TP, especially versus this villain who floats a lot on the flop (the 100% float in PT is for how often the button bets pots on the flop when checked-to in position, yes ).

Haven't thought too much about balancing just yet at my stakes, but maybe that's important too - maybe others have thoughts on this?

Yeah, would have preferred to have a backdoor flush to go with the straight draw - think for me, having the extra draw would have tilted things more in the direction of a c-bet too ...

Everyone's making such great points - there was an option to show peoples' votes, but I left that out so people could just make a quick vote without leaving a post, which has been great to see. But it's been great to see your thoughts too Profess


@Paddy - now I like betting again lol

That's an important point, about having that plan to follow through all the way to the river if necessary, if we decide to bet the flop. With as many as 16 outs, as well as the A pretend out, guess the odds are that a turn card will be one where that would be possible (minus the J)? Thinking about turn cards is next on my list of things to do

Oh yeah, and blocking QJ was one of the reasons I was thinking KJ might have been a good hand to c-bet after all. Probably would have been less likely to c-bet with KQ, but now that you mention it, I like betting that too. Because then like, not only is it less likely that someone else has QJ, but then it's a hand we can represent to try to get better to fold too, I guess? And then if it looks like we had the straight all along, it'd be harder for someone with a J to put us on the K, that's true ...

Great points Paddy


Gosh, before I was thinking that betting wasn't so great, and checking wasn't either. Now it's seeming like a bet would have been good, but a check was good too. Guess there were pluses and minuses to both - maybe the most important thing about this spot is that it brings up all the stuff that can be considered when making a decision in a tough spot? Which is great, that all the stuff that was brought up can be used on spots, other than just this one




Guess it's okay to show the rest of the hand now - the bb had 22, the board didn't improve, the hand got checked around, and 55 won a pot of $0.95 ... kind of a snoozer of an ending, after there was so much great discussion over this hand I suppose :




And here were the pot odds, street-by-street from PT:




Was trying to guess some ranges for the villain to put into Equilab - not sure if there should be other hands, but the equities for JK on the flop looked okay, even with the following ranges:




Will have to re-read this thread a couple hundred times after grinding - so much great info
 
Old
Default
Sun Jun 01, 2014, 07:51 PM
(#18)
ArtySmokesPS's Avatar
Since: Oct 2011
Posts: 7,324
Quote:
Originally Posted by TrustySam View Post
the equities for JK on the flop looked okay, even with the following ranges:
Having decent equity shouldn't be the main reason for choosing to bet or not, if that's what you're implying. How you go about realising that equity, and maximising profit is more important.
e.g. If you flopped top set or two pairs, it doesn't necessarily mean you should bet it. There may be more value in check-calling or check-raising.

You're also super-exploitable if by checking you're signalling that you've given up. If I was the button, I would be betting 100% of the time with air if I expect you to check-fold. If you protect your checking range (meaning you'll sometimes call and sometimes check-raise, with a mixture of made hands and draws) then I can't exploit you by betting ATC.
I'm kind of surprised that the button didn't bet his underpair in this spot, because that's basically air, and would benefit by folding out hands like AK/KQ.


Bracelet Winner
 
Old
Default
Sun Jun 01, 2014, 08:01 PM
(#19)
TrustySam's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 8,291
BronzeStar
Arty, by a 2:1 margin, people in this thread preferred a c-bet to a check, and I addressed each one of the points that people made for making a c-bet, point by point.

If you're going pick on my point, then I'd like to see you pick on everybody's point and not just mine ... I mean like, if you were sincere about trying to flesh out the optimal line based on merit, you would want to debate all the arguments for making a bet ...

Why don't you start with Sandtrap's?

Last edited by TrustySam; Sun Jun 01, 2014 at 08:16 PM..
 
Old
Default
Sun Jun 01, 2014, 08:53 PM
(#20)
ArtySmokesPS's Avatar
Since: Oct 2011
Posts: 7,324
I'm sorry if it came across that way, but I'm really not picking on you. I was trying to help.
You've summarized the various ideas very well, and elucidated why it's a really close spot. We could discuss the nuances of this spot all day. I like checking, and the poll results aren't going to change my mind, despite some solid arguments in favour of the alternative action.
Ultimately, checking and betting are likely to have precisely the same EV for this particular hand, so it doesn't really matter which option you choose.


Bracelet Winner
 

Getting PokerStars is easy: download and install the PokerStars game software, create your free player account, and validate your email address. Clicking on the download poker button will lead to the installation of compatible poker software on your PC of 51.7 MB, which will enable you to register and play poker on the PokerStars platform. To uninstall PokerStars use the Windows uninstaller: click Start > Control Panel and then select Add or Remove programs > Select PokerStars and click Uninstall or Remove.

Copyright (c) PokerSchoolOnline.com. All rights reserved, Rational Group, Douglas Bay Complex, King Edward Road, Onchan, Isle of Man, IM3 1DZ. You can email us on support@pokerschoolonline.com