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Better way to chase OESD donk mode or passive mode?

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Better way to chase OESD donk mode or passive mode? - Sun Jun 01, 2014, 05:11 AM
(#1)
adikumar2010's Avatar
Since: Mar 2011
Posts: 1,094
It's Hot $0.55 Turbo 5mins blind level.

It's 4 way pot , the original raises made a stupid raise. So we can't narrow his range down to anything

Now I was thinking,
If I donk I'll get credit for having some strong hand esp. when donking into multiple opponents, whereas if I check to the pre-flop raiser and he has a overpair to the board. he will pot bet to protect it against 3 fishes

By donking I might no get them to fold overpair or top pair . But I can choose my own price of drawing to straight rather then them giving me price to draw to my straight

Plus donking on a dry board donking looks like I have trips or top pair, and they wouldn't put me on OESD whereas if I donk on a flush draw board and they have TPTK or overpair they will insta-raise me so big that I can't continue to draw and also I will waste chips donking


I might not donk with me OESD on this 778 board if I am heads-up, as he might have AT AJ KQ 22-66, in that case there is a chance he might check back and give me free cards to draw to straight , but in multi-way I am sure no one wants to check there TPTK like A8 K8 and give 3 other people chance to draw out on him . So what I can do is donk myself and then it can sometimes help me take it down on the flop as a semi-bluff but even if they call, the price that I layed out for myself was perfect for me to keep chasing my OESD (sort of like a blocker bets)


Problem with this line I feel is , if I donk someone happens to have trips, or over-pair they could raise me over there and then again I am priced out to chase straight draw plus I lost money by donking I am sure full house will just call my flop donk bet and continue to slow-play as he is not afraid to get drawn out


Plz tell me whether my thought process is wrong , I use it succesfully in my live cash games $1/$1 but I don't do it against tight player coz there range will be super-strong to raise my flop donk. I do this against loose passive scared players


PS: Only one matter of concern like 5% concern that some-one can have 78, trips or 88's full, in which case I am drawing dead or ultra-thin against trips


PokerStars Hand #116939016359: Tournament #914085400, $0.50+$0.05 USD Hold'em No Limit - Level II (15/30) - 2014/06/01 2:21:58 IST [2014/05/31 16:51:58 ET]
Table '914085400 291' 9-max Seat #5 is the button
Seat 1: preisas (3240 in chips)
Seat 2: herthana (2990 in chips)
Seat 3: Dr.ceking (2680 in chips)
Seat 4: ira2512 (6010 in chips)
Seat 5: kruusavedu (3010 in chips)
Seat 6: nikosp33 (2970 in chips)
Seat 7: adikumar2010 (3130 in chips)
Seat 8: chrispoke549 (3990 in chips)
Seat 9: Hottabych Jr (3000 in chips)
nikosp33: posts small blind 15
adikumar2010: posts big blind 30
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to adikumar2010 [ ]
chrispoke549: folds
Hottabych Jr: folds
preisas: calls 30
herthana: raises 30 to 60
Dr.ceking: folds
ira2512: folds
kruusavedu: folds
nikosp33: calls 45
adikumar2010: calls 30
preisas: calls 30
*** FLOP *** [ ]
nikosp33: checks
adikumar2010:
preisas: Action Pending
herthana: Action Pending

STATS :

Last edited by adikumar2010; Sun Jun 01, 2014 at 05:23 AM..
 
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Sun Jun 01, 2014, 12:05 PM
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JWK24's Avatar
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Hi adikumar2010!

I'm going to check and only call a bet from the opp if I'm priced in.. here's why.

If I donk bet here, I need to make a pot-sized bet due to the number of opps in the pot... this bet WILL price me out if I get callers. The only way this will be +EV is if I get an abnormally high percentage of folds... and with no reads in a micro tourney with a large number of calling stations, this most likely will not be the case.

Quote:
Originally Posted by adikumar2010 View Post
But I can choose my own price of drawing to straight rather then them giving me price to draw to my straight
If I would be less than normal, then any observant player at the table will recognize the smaller than normal bet and IMMEDIATELY put me on a draw, as players with draws will often bet small to try to price in their draw. This is a huge tell that is very easily exploitable. Basically any opp that notices this that has a made hand (8, 7 or other pair), should snap-raise and raise enough to price out the draw. When this happens, the draw cannot call and has just leaked away a number of chips (if they do call, the leak off an even larger amount).

Players that make this type of play, think they're pricing themselves in... but in reality, what they are doing is turning their cards face-up (another great example of FPS).

Hope this helps and good luck at the tables.

John (JWK24)


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Sun Jun 01, 2014, 12:13 PM
(#3)
adikumar2010's Avatar
Since: Mar 2011
Posts: 1,094
*** FLOP *** [7d 7s 8h]
nikosp33: checks
adikumar2010: checks
preisas: checks
herthana: bets 240
nikosp33: calls 240
adikumar2010: ??
preisas: Action Pending

I think I can call now, right? I have to call 240 and pot is 720. So I am getting 1:3 to call and I have 32% equity.
 
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Sun Jun 01, 2014, 12:36 PM
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Quick answer.. NO.

You need to call 240 into a pot that will be 960 (25%). You have 8 outs to the straight, which is only worth 16% equity to the turn. Since the pot equity is more than your hand equity, it's a fold.

Every time you would call there, you expect to lose 9% of your chips.

Each out is only worth 2% to the turn.. the only time you can use 4% per out is if you are all-in and guaranteed to see both streets.

John (JWK24)


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Sun Jun 01, 2014, 12:43 PM
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Here's an example of why you don't want to donk small.

Say for example, I'm on the button and see someone do this. If it folds to me, I can easily raise (and price them out).
The donk-bettor now either leaks off what they have already put into the pot or calls to leak off even more.

Say the turn is a non-straight card.. guess what's happening again.... if they donk, I'm raising. If they check, I'm betting 1/2 pot to price them out. Once again, the player OOP will fold and leak off chips or call and leak off even more chips.

If the river is another non-straight card.. guess what happens.. the pot is now large enough that I'm shoving anything. Would you call when the draw missed? If no, you just leaked off a large portion of your stack.

The key... I can literally do this with ATC and your T9 may be the best hand... and you'll have no clue that it is.

John (JWK24)


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Sun Jun 01, 2014, 01:08 PM
(#6)
adikumar2010's Avatar
Since: Mar 2011
Posts: 1,094
JWK you are a pro man, don't compare yourself with these nano stakes donks.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JWK24 View Post
Quick answer.. NO.

You need to call 240 into a pot that will be 960 (25%). You have 8 outs to the straight, which is only worth 16% equity to the turn. Since the pot equity is more than your hand equity, it's a fold.

Every time you would call there, you expect to lose 9% of your chips.

Each out is only worth 2% to the turn.. the only time you can use 4% per out is if you are all-in and guaranteed to see both streets.

John (JWK24)
But why can't I call it might get check through on the turn, esp. when 3-way on the turn ?
 
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Sun Jun 01, 2014, 01:13 PM
(#7)
adikumar2010's Avatar
Since: Mar 2011
Posts: 1,094
Quote:
Originally Posted by JWK24 View Post
Here's an example of why you don't want to donk small.

Say for example, I'm on the button and see someone do this. If it folds to me, I can easily raise (and price them out).
The donk-bettor now either leaks off what they have already put into the pot or calls to leak off even more.

Say the turn is a non-straight card.. guess what's happening again.... if they donk, I'm raising. If they check, I'm betting 1/2 pot to price them out. Once again, the player OOP will fold and leak off chips or call and leak off even more chips.

If the river is another non-straight card.. guess what happens.. the pot is now large enough that I'm shoving anything. Would you call when the draw missed? If no, you just leaked off a large portion of your stack.

The key... I can literally do this with ATC and your T9 may be the best hand... and you'll have no clue that it is.

John (JWK24)
It's easier said then done, I learnt from you that you and dave sometimes donks sets or trips on a table full of amateurs and you are getting good results. I have been doing that in live games and it gives me more value of my set or trips then playing passively or check-raising flop.

It's not that easy when you don't see opponents cards, that you can raise me with ATC on the button in a 4-way pot. As I said I sometimes donks out super-strong hands as you advised me it works well against average or fish players.
 
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Sun Jun 01, 2014, 01:18 PM
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When looking at hand equities, you always have to assume action on the turn. If you do not, you'll always be looking at the wrong odds. this is a mistake that many players make and they will get themselves into trouble if they do it because instead of what they think is a +EV play.. is in reality a huge -EV play.

Don't be surprised... a very similar tourney to this was one of my regular ones before black Friday (along with a number of other better players, and even without hitting a FT, I had a very good ROI in them ). Don't always assume that everyone in these is a bad player. While there are a large number of bad players, there will also be a decent number of pros and semi-pros in them most likely too.

John (JWK24)


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Sun Jun 01, 2014, 01:21 PM
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JWK24's Avatar
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adikumar2010 View Post
It's easier said then done, I learnt from you that you and dave sometimes donks sets or trips on a table full of amateurs and you are getting good results. I have been doing that in live games and it gives me more value of my set or trips then playing passively or check-raising flop.
That may be true.. which says to me that it's a soft game with a number of lesser players in it. A c/r there turns your cards face-up to an observant opponent.

Also, when we donk there, we have a made hand.. not a draw.

John (JWK24)

P.S. It won't be a 4-way pot if you'd donk and the others between you and the button fold.


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Sun Jun 01, 2014, 01:33 PM
(#10)
adikumar2010's Avatar
Since: Mar 2011
Posts: 1,094
I made the mistake of thinking turn might go check around.

*** FLOP *** [7d 7s 8h]
nikosp33: checks
adikumar2010: checks
preisas: checks
herthana: bets 240
nikosp33: calls 240
adikumar2010: calls 240
preisas: folds
*** TURN *** [7d 7s 8h] [Kd]
nikosp33: checks
adikumar2010: checks
herthana: bets 420
nikosp33: folds
adikumar2010:

Now I need to call 420 into 1380. So 1:3.2 pot odds and I think hand has 1:5.18 (16%) equity
 
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Sun Jun 01, 2014, 01:48 PM
(#11)
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It's now 420 into 1800 (23.3%). Hand is still worth 16%.. so once again, the pot equity is more, so it's a fold.

John (JWK24)


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Sun Jun 01, 2014, 01:57 PM
(#12)
adikumar2010's Avatar
Since: Mar 2011
Posts: 1,094
Quote:
Originally Posted by JWK24 View Post
It's now 420 into 1800 (23.3%). Hand is still worth 16%.. so once again, the pot equity is more, so it's a fold.

John (JWK24)
Sorry Sir its 420 to call into a pot of 1380 i.e. 30.43% and our hand has 16% equity.
 
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Sun Jun 01, 2014, 02:00 PM
(#13)
JWK24's Avatar
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adikumar2010 View Post
Sorry Sir its 420 to call into a pot of 1380 i.e. 30.43% and our hand has 16% equity.
No. You have to add the 420 chips that we will be putting into the pot.. it's 420 into 1800.

John (JWK24)


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