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Chickened out on river

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Chickened out on river - Sun Jun 01, 2014, 08:40 AM
(#1)
Alfa Djalo's Avatar
Since: May 2014
Posts: 11
Hi,

I played this hand yesterday and would like to hear your thoughts on what I could have done better.



Some background:
It's 1c2c NLHE. The table is reasonably tight. The villain has not been at the table long, the only note I have on him is that he bet large last to act in a 4way pot after the pre-flop raiser checked through.

I do not normally open limp. My thinking was that I prefer not to be the aggressor with this type of hand (suited connectors) because it has the potential to flop well, and in a 1c2c game the pre-flop raiser usually gets too aggressive with over pairs/TPTK on scary boards, so the implied odds are terrible. Happy to play a limped pot if no-one raises. Rethinking this strategy now...

Obviously I must call when I hit top pair on the flop. Thought about raising to see what he'd do but didn't want to bloat the pot.

The turn improved my hand to an open ender. Often in these games people will give up when their continuation bet doesn't get the fold they want, so I think there is a good chance he has an overpaid. Still I think my hand is too good to fold. Again thought about raising, but chickened out. Retrospectively this probably would not have been a terrible idea - it represents the straight, and gives me me more credibility if I shove the river.

When the Ace came on the river, I folded because I didn't think there was any hand I could beat that he could have, and I didn't have enough chips that a reraise bluff would have any chance.

Appreciate any thoughts. I understand open limping is not generally considered a good idea, this might be why. Looking for suggestions on whether a different line post flop would have been better.

Thanks,
Alfa.
 
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Sun Jun 01, 2014, 09:37 AM
(#2)
etchos's Avatar
Since: Sep 2013
Posts: 38
Ok well you have got the open limping bit. limping from UTG+1 and then calling the raise is bad.

From there it doesn't really get much better. check calling 2 streets is never good unless you think you have a lock on the hand. top pair decent kicker isnt exactly a lock though.

Why did you check the flop? hitting top pair here is an opportunity to take the initiative in the hand. Checking gives him the opportunity to bet with any 2 cards.

Also when you call the bet on the flop do you have a plan for the turn?

Essentially my take is that I would like to be the one asking the questions of the villian not the other way around. I think you played this way too passively and I think thats going to be a big leak for you.
 
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Sun Jun 01, 2014, 03:30 PM
(#3)
dduvshani's Avatar
Since: May 2014
Posts: 175
maybe with a queen and higer top pair on a dry board it was a good idea to play passivley but considering u where already invested heavily in the pot i think u had to call the river. this fold not only effect this hand because from now on most chances your opp will keep bulling u for the rest of your money.

Last edited by dduvshani; Sun Jun 01, 2014 at 03:43 PM..
 
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Sun Jun 01, 2014, 07:11 PM
(#4)
ArtySmokesPS's Avatar
Since: Oct 2011
Posts: 7,353
By limping in, you immediately reduce your chance of winning the hand, and by calling a raise to 4bb, you're costing yourself even more money to see a flop than you would if you had opened for 3x.

In short, you end up playing a large pot out of position, with a marginal hand, and with no initiative. How do you expect to make money if you have none of the 3 main factors that make a hand profitable?

If a hand isn't good enough to raise first in, just fold pre.


Bracelet Winner
 
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Mon Jun 02, 2014, 10:09 AM
(#5)
rkleefstra's Avatar
Since: Feb 2013
Posts: 2,328
Never even limp. And bet toppair ! if you get raised you could consider folding but calling is deffo an option unless the raise is really big and villain is aggressive and/or fishy.
On the turn, you hand improves so I would bet again for sure. But if you get raised, you should prob fold.


As played, I prob would call the river, fully expected to be beat by Kj, TJ, AJ, but not be supriced to see a busted flushdraw or 77,88,99, 10x, 89, kq, aq, ak

And...what Arty says
Position and initiative are key-factors
 
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Mon Jun 02, 2014, 08:01 PM
(#6)
shynleigh355's Avatar
Since: Jan 2012
Posts: 57
Hi,
First of all, don´t play these kind of hands from the beginning of the table. They are pretty looking hands, but it will be much better if you play the top of startig hands and focus on exctractinf value from them. In micro stakes, people tend to pay you off a lot, so it´s gonna be so much better if you play only the best hands and play them agressively.
As played, the standar here is to call a raise and see what the flop brings. The flop comes good for you, giving a top pair. However,you kicker is not the best one, but since your opp could have missed the flop, we must be cautious and call his bet. The turn card improves your hand, giving and open-ended straight draw. Your opponent bets again, and that´s the worring part. Most players, not to say all of them, are not going to bet again on the turn in case they have AK or AQ. Here's a tip for you: every moment when someone bets on a situation that is supposed to be in your favor, just like this turn card, they are not likely to be bluffing. Even if your opponent is the kind of player that is going to bet again on the turn, we should be folding. The reason is because even if we have outs, ther mey not be clean, as ther could improve the opp´s hand. Therefore, I thinf the advisable here is to fold.
Suited connectors mas flop very well, just like you said. But try to follow these criteria toplay these hands:
1) in position;
2) paying a cheap price;
3) with more opponents.


Double Bracelet Winner


Last edited by shynleigh355; Mon Jun 02, 2014 at 10:32 PM..
 
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Mon Jun 02, 2014, 09:50 PM
(#7)
say_donk_plz's Avatar
Since: Dec 2011
Posts: 18
Fold pre..tighten up your range UTG. In my exp. if you're ever limping things UTG, limp with low pocket pairs to try to set mine. Other than that yeah fold QJs pre...
 
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Tue Jun 03, 2014, 08:35 AM
(#8)
Alfa Djalo's Avatar
Since: May 2014
Posts: 11
Thanks all for the comments. There are some pretty clear themes here.

I am sold that open limping is generally very bad. In a very limited set of circumstances it is presumably ok; small pocket pairs at certain tables I would expect to be one case; suited connectors probably never.

I'm also sold on a flop bet, however do people suggest a donk bet or a check raise ? If a donk bet gets raised I am in no better position than I was with a check, worse cos the pot is bigger. If a check raise got called or raised I would know I was in trouble. This feels like a better play to me., particularly if I think my opponent will be aggressive.

I agree my turn was horrid, mainly cos a. Outs I thought I had weren't clean; and b. he might not put any more money in with four cards to a straight. Clear fold.

I am still thinking a fold on the river was ok, I am pretty confident I was beaten. No point throwing good money after bad. I'm not too worried about being bullied, because the table was tight (I looked over hands and this was the third hand of 38 the villain had played). In my very limited experience, there are not many good bullies in 1c2c - they don't have the skills to read players or they'd be playing higher limits.

I know my passivity is a leak, and appreciate the advice everyone gave on how I could have improve.

Thanks,
Alfa.
 
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Tue Jun 03, 2014, 09:53 AM
(#9)
rkleefstra's Avatar
Since: Feb 2013
Posts: 2,328
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alfa Djalo View Post

I'm also sold on a flop bet, however do people suggest a donk bet or a check raise ? If a donk bet gets raised I am in no better position than I was with a check, worse cos the pot is bigger. If a check raise got called or raised I would know I was in trouble. This feels like a better play to me., particularly if I think my opponent will be aggressive.
If you are the aggresor, you are not donkbetting, you are cbetting. I would cbet toppair pretty much always.

As played, you are not the aggresor, and I would not donkbet but just check/call. Don't check-raise. Your hand isn't strong enough. If they fold, you might miss value. If you get raised, you have to fold your toppair, goodish kicker. So just check/call and let them proceed with their entire range.

But remember, because you limp/call pre, that changes everyting. His range is much wider now and he could simple be cbettig with air, cbetting for value, cbetting with draws... if you had bet pre and he had called, his range would be more narrow.
And if he had 3betted you pre, you wouldnt be in the hand at all (I hope).

BTW, I'm not familiar with Full ring so this could indeed be a fold pre from this early position...dunno, on 6max I would always open QJs.
 

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