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10nl zoom 6m - value bluff overbet shove on the river ... too reckless and spewy?

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10nl zoom 6m - value bluff overbet shove on the river ... too reckless and spewy? - Sun Jun 01, 2014, 11:37 AM
(#1)
TrustySam's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 8,291
BronzeStar
Hi everyone


Lately I was trying to work on getting more value from my big(gish) hands - but sometimes my ranging of players isn't so accurate, and the hands that seemed like they might be big(gish), weren't so much ...


Was my river overbet maybe a bit too thin in this spot, given that I wasn't entirely sure what the villain had? It seemed like the villain would have have bet the turn with a straight, and bet the river with a boat ... but I hoping to fold out QQ-AA with my river shove - and then the villain called :o


Villain's HUD Stats:



My Notes on Villain:

Quote:
WEIRD RANGE - BEWARE!
T8s(called my 3-bet oop, then chased a flush on a K-high board and crack my AA on the turn)
A9o(bvb calling range - bet, then checked behind on a 23AT board - seems to play normal TAG post-flop? We tied on the river)
K9s(from utg??)



Did I maybe just get lucky here?

Thanks for the help!
 
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Sun Jun 01, 2014, 05:58 PM
(#2)
Paddy Gar's Avatar
Since: Apr 2010
Posts: 439
What a weird hand.

Stats don't suggest this guy limps very often. I'd be wary of that post flop.

River is extremely thin considering we just dont know what he is limp reraising with. He could easily check back a hand stronger than ours ott.

Honestly just because of the extremely unorthidox line this guy took i'd check it back thinking its tough to get called by worse. Maybe he gave up with some random hand and is never calling. I guess him checking turn and river could entice a value bet, but I don't expect him to fold aces or kings here when the board pairs and some draws missed.

We definitely have strong showdown value given his turn and river check so I don't think it's even necessary to try and turn our hand into a bluff here.

btw sam you can delete the results at the end of the hand history before saving to replayer so we can't see what happened
 
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Sun Jun 01, 2014, 08:18 PM
(#3)
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,476
(Head Trainer)
Hi Sam,

Given the way this hand played out, I think it's a fine spot for this bet. We know that this villain is capable of showing up with weird hands, and blind v blind is the prime situation for him to do so. We checked back the turn, and he responded by checking the river to us. I feel like most players will bet the river with better hands in this spot after the turn goes c/c. And he isn't likely to have air, since he opted not to bluff the river. So it seems he will have a lot of showdown value type hands... 88, 6x, 5x type hands. And with hearts missing, he can talk himself into our shove being a bluff and hero call us with all these bluff catchers. Seems like you identified a good spot imo.

@Paddy, we are not turning our hand into a bluff... that means taking a showdown value hand trying to fold out even better. He is certainly never folding a better hand imo, and we are not bluff, but going for value vs. all his bluff catchers (which his line seems to indicate a lot of).


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Sun Jun 01, 2014, 08:22 PM
(#4)
TrustySam's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 8,291
BronzeStar
Thanks Paddy, Dave


I kind of see both your points - wonder if maybe I made an okay bet, but not for the right reasons?

Will have to come back and take a look at the hand in the morning, since it's been a long day at the tables - am sure I'll have more to say after taking a closer look at your comments tomorrow.


Thanks so much for the help
 
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Sun Jun 01, 2014, 08:31 PM
(#5)
Paddy Gar's Avatar
Since: Apr 2010
Posts: 439
Yeah Dave i see what you're saying. He can have showdown value here for sure.

It's such a weird line I wouldn't really know how to approach the river.

Last edited by Paddy Gar; Sun Jun 01, 2014 at 09:01 PM..
 
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Sun Jun 01, 2014, 09:11 PM
(#6)
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,476
(Head Trainer)
Quote:
Originally Posted by TrustySam View Post
wonder if maybe I made an okay bet, but not for the right reasons?
I see... you were trying to fold out QQ-AA... yeah, I don't think that's a likely scenario as it requires a somewhat improbable parlay... first that the villain played the big pair this way (checking turn and river) and second that they will fold it after checking to us twice. I think if a villain does chose to check AA to us twice here it's with the intention calling, especially when the flopped flush draw bricks. They will be bluff catching us quite a bit. But given all the weird hands he can show up with, a lot of those bluff catchers will be worse hands.


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Mon Jun 02, 2014, 04:09 AM
(#7)
GamblingProp's Avatar
Since: Jan 2013
Posts: 714
I would argue about 4betting pre, I think you have a clearer idea of where you are in the hand if you do that.
Also if they call a 3bet with T8s, they probably are going to call a 4bet more loosely.
As played I am shoving river for value.
I believe they can have a lot of medium pairs in their range, which can call off the river.
And QQ-AA are never folding river imo.
 

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