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I think I played this fine, yes or no will do !

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I think I played this fine, yes or no will do ! - Sun Jun 01, 2014, 06:11 PM
(#1)
adikumar2010's Avatar
Since: Mar 2011
Posts: 1,094
It's Hot $0.55 and I stacked off 62BB. Maybe it's perfect to do with this hand anyday.

I think I played it fine, maybe I could have made preflop raise 2.5x. But that will not stop people calling with there suited cards no matter you min raise, 3x, 4x. If they get married to there cards they are calling any raise. So my strategy is to keep the pot small with those maniacs. This way I can min raise with my weak holdings also and get away with a steal from LP.

Other then that I think half pot is fine if they have flush draws, 1/2 pot is good price to charge them not too much and not too less, maybe 2/3 pot is slightly better on a flush draw board but I think 1/2 will do coz they will not always have a flush draw.

I think I was like 300 places close to bubble but who cares, it's like mid-stages.

I don't want you to think that I am whining about a bad beat, I just want to know if the bet sizing were fine or like I could use a bit more preflop and on the flop but I don't like 3x pre and 3/4 pot on flop to kill action cpz everyone is shallow and ITM iis closing in. Thanks.



STATS :
 
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Sun Jun 01, 2014, 06:30 PM
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JWK24's Avatar
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Hi adikumar2010!

If you want a one word answer, I'd go with facepalm!

Preflop, I need to make a standard raise, which at this blind level is to 2.5BB+1BB for each limper or 750 chips.

With 2 opps in the pot, I cannot bet less than 2/3 pot on the flop. Doing so gives the opps the right odds to be in the pot and if I give them the correct odds, it's my own fault that I lose.

When the opps get the correct odds, they WILL win on average and I deserve to lose (and will lose chips to them on average each and every single time).

When the opps get the odds, it's 100% on me if I lose the hand.

Hope this helps and good luck at the tables.

John (JWK24)

P.S. This is a great example of how fancy play syndrome will make the hand blow up in my face.


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Sun Jun 01, 2014, 06:35 PM
(#3)
adikumar2010's Avatar
Since: Mar 2011
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Don't worry JWK they will call u no matter u min raise, 2.5x or 3x as it's suited. I think you don't know the rule of donkament, you get married to suited cards no matter what action happened before you, even if there has been 3-bet, you can cold-call 3-bet with suited cards. Result won't change here. This muppet was ready to gamble 62BB with flush draw what do you expect from him to laydown A5s to my 3x raise preflop.

He is min-raising with flush draw, he didn't choose to draw at the price I gave him ROFL.

It's always my fault that I price them in.
 
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Sun Jun 01, 2014, 06:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adikumar2010 View Post
It's always my fault that I price them in.

If you do so, then yes, it is.

Remember Dave's training session from yesterday (a review of this tourney)... he said that we want to always charge the opps when we have a made hand and to NOT bet small and price them in.

John (JWK24)


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Sun Jun 01, 2014, 06:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adikumar2010 View Post
I was thinking of 2/3 pot will be better, but stacks are so shallow that 1/2 pot will apply the same pressure when I am c-betting with air.
less than 2/3 always gives them the odds if there are 2 opps in the pot. Betting less with c-bets IS a tell that a smarter player will look for, make notes on, and use against the player at a later point in time. It's VERY exploitable.

John (JWK24)


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Sun Jun 01, 2014, 06:44 PM
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adikumar2010's Avatar
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Yes I now remember, we want to charge them premium to draw.

I was thinking of 2/3 pot will be better, but stacks are so shallow that 1/2 pot will apply the same pressure when I am c-betting with air that's why I don't change my c-bet size from 1/2 pot, maybe thats why I didn't want to deviate from my normal sizing in this hand as I was 1/2 potting with every range on the flop.
 
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Sun Jun 01, 2014, 06:46 PM
(#7)
adikumar2010's Avatar
Since: Mar 2011
Posts: 1,094
I have a tendency to play small ball poker, and not bloat every pot. These days I see people doing 1/3 in late stage as standard c-bet and 1/2 in mid stage as standard c-bet in MTTs. I am sure you have also seen this, unlike cash game where c-bet is 2/3 or 75%.
 
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Sun Jun 01, 2014, 06:48 PM
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That's where you're mistaken on this one.. 1/2 does NOT put pressure on them, it gives them the correct odds. A 1200 bet into a stack of 20k... does not pressure them.

2/3 prices them out and puts pressure on them... anything less, does not.

John (JWK24)

P.S. if someone wants to c-bet less than 1/2 pot... then they'll need all the luck in the world against a smart opp, as the smart opp will call with any realistic draw and suck out on them due to being priced in.


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Sun Jun 01, 2014, 06:53 PM
(#9)
adikumar2010's Avatar
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I forgot, Yes that 1/3 pot and 1/2 is usually more workable at higher buyin events also. Here at micro-stakes if they have a big stack even if you pot it they will continue to chase there draws. So why not do that if they don't mind paying premium money.
 
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Sun Jun 01, 2014, 06:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adikumar2010 View Post
I forgot, Yes that 1/3 pot and 1/2 is usually more workable at higher buyin events also. Here at micro-stakes if they have a big stack even if you pot it they will continue to chase there draws. So why not do that if they don't mind paying premium money.
I hope someone tries to 1/3 pot me next month in the WSOP tourney I'm playing... I'll take every chip from them that they want to throw at me.

John (JWK24)


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Sun Jun 01, 2014, 07:02 PM
(#11)
adikumar2010's Avatar
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GL for WSOP, I hope we can see you on the live coverage.

But my sizing is smaller then normal is coz so that when I bluff I can get away for cheap, and when I have made hand if I deviate from my normal bet size they will pickup on it, that I have a hand this time.

I develop this bad habit to bluff of opponents and get them of there 2nd pair or Top pair weaker kicker, without me spewing more chips in the process. If I encounter a sticky player then I don't need to bluff him off, coz he will not notice what bet size I am making.

So I guess I will have to make it 2/3 pot when bluffing also with air, coz if they call I will most probably have to give up on the turn or I will have to double barrel which means leaking more chips in bluffing process.

Do you know a good way to balance it, like I can get away without spewing off much chips while trying to bluff and at the same time when I have hand they don't sniff that.
 
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Sun Jun 01, 2014, 07:21 PM
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Bet the exact same whether you have it or not. As soon as you make multiple bet sizes and have to show one... the opp will know exactly what your hand is.

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Mon Jun 02, 2014, 10:57 AM
(#13)
spand42's Avatar
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adikumar2010 View Post
Don't worry JWK they will call u no matter u min raise, 2.5x or 3x as it's suited.
Why not be exploitative and make it 3x with AA preflop then?

Quote:
Originally Posted by adikumar2010 View Post
Yes I now remember, we want to charge them premium to draw.

I was thinking of 2/3 pot will be better, but stacks are so shallow that 1/2 pot will apply the same pressure when I am c-betting with air that's why I don't change my c-bet size from 1/2 pot, maybe thats why I didn't want to deviate from my normal sizing in this hand as I was 1/2 potting with every range on the flop.
A mistake that a lot of MTT players make is to CBet too small as John has already stated very well.

We're not that shallow here, we're playing 60BB effective with major3101, so you need to give an incorrect price for villain to make his draw.

Quote:
Originally Posted by adikumar2010 View Post

But my sizing is smaller then normal is coz so that when I bluff I can get away for cheap.
When stacks start getting much shallower, say if you're playing a pot with someone who has an effective stack of 15-25BB, I definitely like to make my CBet sizing much smaller than 2/3 pot as you're still putting a lot of pressure on the opponent's stack.

Because of this, CBets of 1/3 pot and even less have a lot of fold equity. We can still win their stack a lot of the time with our value hands and it makes our bluffs cheaper so we're not crippled when they raise us and we have to fold.
 
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Mon Jun 02, 2014, 11:00 AM
(#14)
spand42's Avatar
Since: Sep 2010
Posts: 1,496
By the way I don't think anyone actually addressed this point yet, but in the hand, as played I think the flop is a fold. We already have a big stack and against this action we're often up against one hand that crushes us.

In fact our best case scenario is the one that you found yourself in and even then you're only 49% favourite to win the hand outright. Most of the time you'll be crushed.
 
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Mon Jun 02, 2014, 12:32 PM
(#15)
adikumar2010's Avatar
Since: Mar 2011
Posts: 1,094
So you mean Andy I should have folded after the 3-bet shove?
 
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Mon Jun 02, 2014, 01:45 PM
(#16)
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
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Hey guys,

The discussion from Saturday's live training wasn't precisely regarding pricing out draws, but in pressing value, as it relates to this hand. Both the preflop action and flop c-bet should be larger, because they will pay it.

The themes from the class (which featured a .55c turbo donkament) which came up over and over in the hands were:

1. don't bluff much (without reads)
2. Lean heavily on value bets
3. don't fold very strong 1 pair hands (high card top/top or big overpairs) too often.

1. Most of the player pool are weak players that make tons of mistakes, and that often manifests in calling mistakes. So pick your bluff targets conservatively, making sure you are attacking a weak range AND the target can fold it!

2. They pay. Adi you said it, they don't care if you or 5x or anything in between, they are taking a flop with their pretty looking suited hand. So charge them a premium and soak up that value. Same thinking post flop, when we have a strong 1 pair hand or better, there's value to be made.

3. We saw that guy in the first hand of the live training make a complete non-sense check/shove on the turn with top pair/no kicker and no draw. We see it again in this hand. Facing strong UTG action and a raise in a 3 way pot, the BB takes what started as a 23bb stack and directly monkeys in the other 21bb's with KQ. Because, you know, top pair/2nd kicker is the nuts in a heavy action multi-way pot. lol The bigger stack raises his draw, opening himself up to being reraised, then calls off
90% of his starting stack without even close to a correct price on the draw. So yeah, I actually don't have a problem getting it in on the flop here. Vs even mildly better players, the actions would represent much stronger ranges imo and we can talk about folding, but in a .55c tourney with all the wild mistakes we'll see, I'm ok with this spot.

Quote:
but I don't like 3x pre and 3/4 pot on flop to kill action cpz everyone is shallow and ITM iis closing in. Thanks
The 2 players directly behind us aren't shallow. And again, mtt's like the Hot .55c are not known for their shortage of action.

Quote:
Do you know a good way to balance it, like I can get away without spewing off much chips while trying to bluff and at the same time when I have hand they don't sniff that.
It's always good to think about balancing, and work on refining a balanced strategy as a default sort of approach imo, but you also have to prepare for when to deviate from that. And in a micro-donkament, deviate from that a lot. Don't worry about random readless .55c players sniffing your big hands... most won't.


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Mon Jun 02, 2014, 02:21 PM
(#17)
adikumar2010's Avatar
Since: Mar 2011
Posts: 1,094
Is anyone down with the small ball poker then daniel is big fan of. I seem to like his idea, this way he can see many flops against weak players and he can also control pot without bloating it.
This way as he know he can get away with small c-bet on the flop and the 2nd or 3rd pair on the flop will still fold even if you c-bet like 1/2 or 1/3 or 2/3 coz you are doing 1/3 will all your ranges.

But suppose if anyone playing this way all of a sudden makes a c-bet to 3/4 of the pot while he was doing 1/2 all the time, it says he has a strong hand and want to charge weak players premium to draw to there OESD or FD.

So if you are playing in a good field as soon as you deviate from small ball to huge ball..lol They will suspect you are trying to protect your hand.

But as dave said in these donkaments you can c-bet with different sizing when you are bluffing and when u are trying to price out draws.

I thought 1/2 pot is good c-bet just incase the other guy raises us we can fold and also loose less chips in the process whenever our c-bet's get raised. Mixing up the bet size is what JWK strickly hates to do as people will pickup on it.

But when I play live over-all my image is tight, close to nit. So I can double barrel and make them fold good hands just coz they respect my bets. Once they call my flop and turn bet, I would know they are trapping me so in the process I lose less chips.

I am not sure how does daniel works it with good balance of small bets and then at the same time pricing out draws without people noticing the change in his bet pattern if he ever change his bet size. Plus to do that kind of stuff you need super good hand reading abilities which I think daniel is best at.

I developed this tendency after watching him play but that's totally at different stakes and he is up against thinking players. As we know its easy to bluff a thinker rather then a player who just plays his own cards. Coz you can do some chip dance and crazy move which can make them think he is getting trapped. Basically thinkers fall into there own trap due to over-thinking about why the opponent took such line.

I have watched many videos, key to breakdown a hand while u are facing a tough decision is to simplify it and not to complicate it by factoring in the conditions which don't even exist.

For example reverse-reverse play, in one of the high stakes poker episode Antonio Esfandiari was up against some player and he said he is doing this thing coz he knows that opponent does this when he is bluffing so this time he is doing this thing as the opponent has a hand, so like reverse-reversse psycology (I don't know the term for it). I am just trying to say this is a mistake I also make by over-complicating things, we need to think like a fish to beat a fish and see how he would do if he have trips on that board.

When I am in a tough spot against tight fish, I think of myself how I played in the beginning coz he is 80% doing the same thing I used to do when I started poker.

Anyways sorry for my long gibberish. I can't stop myself sometimes to express my feelings.

PS: Lesson for Dave, JWK, Chew, Spand is when you analyze my hand and read my non-sense thought process plz dont get frustated or riled up. I am actually giving you free insight into how a hybrid-fish (adikumar2010) thinks while playing a hand, so you can use this stuff against hybrid-fishes when are up against them.

Last edited by adikumar2010; Mon Jun 02, 2014 at 02:34 PM..
 

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