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Should I be firing the bullet or giving up earlier? 10nl zoom 6max

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Should I be firing the bullet or giving up earlier? 10nl zoom 6max - Tue Jun 03, 2014, 04:22 PM
(#1)
Paddy Gar's Avatar
Since: Apr 2010
Posts: 439
I've been in a few spots like this recently. Here I 3bet as opener has high f3bet, especially oop.

Recreational player calls. No info on him just see he is 1 tabling. He snap calls flop and turn. Should I be betting the turn? Even though I know he has a pretty weak range on the river here should I ever be trying to get him off his hand?

I bet turn because I think he folds his a highs and smaller pairs a decent amount. If he doesn't fold them on the turn I guess there's no point in trying to push him off of them otr?

Edit: This particular hand might not be the best example because he'll call turn with a lot of pairs with draws. Sometimes i'll be in a similar spot where turn brings a broadway and I barrell and they call quickly again.




 
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Tue Jun 03, 2014, 05:00 PM
(#2)
Sandtrap777's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 3,310
Here's my 2 cents

First lets look at your hand, KTs. What is your plan, what do you expect?
- Your not going for a straight, 3 gap, not worth the re-raise
- You hope to het another K, still not worth the re-raise
- So I guess you're hoping for a flush, I wouldn't re-raise

"Here I 3bet as opener has high f3bet, especially oop."
So, if it happens that he's holding AA, those numbers mean nothing
But to re-raise to isolate that particular player with still 4 players to act, I wouldn't

"Recreational player calls. No info on him just see he is 1 tabling."
You have no info on him, but you're able to judge that he's a recreational player?
I often play one table and I see many others playing one table (regulars)
He could be playing 6 tournaments and only 1 cash. You need to have notes on players before passing a judgement to help you in your decision.

With the flop I would do the same as you Cbet, but afterward it's check fold

"Even though I know he has a pretty weak range on the river here should I ever be trying to get him off his hand?"
I'm just curious, if you have no info on this player, how can you come to that conclusion?
The fact that he called your bet on the flop and I didn't catch on the turn, the answer would be no.

"I bet turn because I think he folds his a highs and smaller pairs a decent amount."
Again, you have no info on the player, but you're able to say that he will fold?

Pre-flop - I call
Post-flop - I CBet
Turn - I check fold to a bet
River - I check fold

Basically, all this to say, again and again, numbers shouldn't dictate how you should play, you need notes on the players and you need a plan. Don't ASS U ME, if you do, you'll be spewing more than you'll win

GL
 
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Tue Jun 03, 2014, 05:03 PM
(#3)
dirt eh's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 1,274
Villains range isn't necessarily that weak once the station us twice. Also, they CC your 3B IP. I would give them a pocket pair here. I don't like the barrel OTT. We're not even drawing to a nut-ted hand.

If they're recreational 22-JJ. If not recreational maybe 88-JJ.
 
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Tue Jun 03, 2014, 05:21 PM
(#4)
Sandtrap777's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 3,310
Quote:
Originally Posted by dirt eh View Post
If they're recreational 22-JJ. If not recreational maybe 88-JJ.
Hey dirt,

Just a quick question, why wouldn't a recreational player have Ax (x being any card on the flop)?
Even a recreational player can have a T9s or even a 67s. With no notes on the player, it's pretty hard to say
 
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Tue Jun 03, 2014, 05:29 PM
(#5)
Paddy Gar's Avatar
Since: Apr 2010
Posts: 439
Yeah you're right Sand i don't have enough info, I'm just making an educational guess here. I think his snap calls indicate a hand he likes that isn't very strong, he'd have to think about raising at some point if he had a strong hand.

It's true he may not be recreational, but I don't see many regs snap calling in these spots and i think it's a fair assumption. I play the 10nl zoom pool a lot these days, and it's very likely a person playing 1 table is a recreational player.

I 3bet the hand because it's got some good blockers, and I don't think i can call profitably versus his range in these positions with this particular hand. Rather than fold, I believe I can make a profit by 3betting it because he only continues with a very tight range. If he does end up cold calling the hand has ok playability and i know he has a very strong range to call the 3bet so i proceed cautiously on kx etc. I'm not trying to get it in against aces, im not trying to flop a king and win his stack. I'm just trying to take a hand i would fold often here and win the pot pre flop.

Looking back I agree 100% that betting the turn is bad on this board. Check/fold def the best play.
 
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Tue Jun 03, 2014, 05:44 PM
(#6)
Sandtrap777's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 3,310
Hey Paddy,

Snap calling is not necessarily a tell
If a regular is playing 8 tables, he's got a slow response, but someone who's 1 tabling as nothing better to do than just click asap.

I personally mix my reaction to betting, sometimes I snap call, other times I let the timer go 3/4 of the way

"I'm just trying to take a hand i would fold often here and win the pot pre flop"
Makes sense, but with 4 players to act, not much info on the players, it's a gamble. I'll do it, but I have about 7-8 lines of notes on the players. But my main reason in doing so, is that I've got lots of profit and can gamble a bit, just like any big stacks bullying the small ones.

Hope this makes sense
GL
 
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Tue Jun 03, 2014, 06:03 PM
(#7)
Paddy Gar's Avatar
Since: Apr 2010
Posts: 439
Certainly does Sand. Thanks for the input i love reading your view on hands.

I think I'm answering my own question when I look at the hand. If villain is a recreational player like I believed him to be, then there isn't much point in trying to bluff him off his hand. We make most of our monies from value betting these guys, not bluffing.
 
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Tue Jun 03, 2014, 06:53 PM
(#8)
Sandtrap777's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 3,310
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paddy Gar View Post
We make most of our monies from value betting these guys, not bluffing.
+ 1000
 
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Tue Jun 03, 2014, 08:01 PM
(#9)
dirt eh's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 1,274
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sandtrap777 View Post
Hey dirt,

Just a quick question, why wouldn't a recreational player have Ax (x being any card on the flop)?
Even a recreational player can have a T9s or even a 67s. With no notes on the player, it's pretty hard to say
Well they could have ANYTHING but considering the action is raise and 3-bet... most players aren't going to stick around with Ax and suited connectors when they can just QUICK fold and move onto the next hand. If "I" was going to range this villain I would be giving them a pocket pair or at worse Ax SUITED. This is ZOOM so yea... QUICK FOLD is in play here.
 
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Tue Jun 03, 2014, 10:57 PM
(#10)
TrustySam's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 8,291
BronzeStar
Am working on my turn spots as well
 
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Wed Jun 04, 2014, 01:10 PM
(#11)
TrustySam's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 8,291
BronzeStar
Okay, so c-betting and double-barreling are kind of funny in the sense that, like we all probably start doing it ... and then we go back and start learning to do it well? You know what I mean, like the need to double-barrel comes up before we'll have a chance to study all the nuances of it, in all it's complexity, or whatever?

Ehhh ...


Anyways ... have just started studying turn spots in more depth away from the tables, and some random observations so far are:

1. Double-barreling can be expensive if they don't work, with the compounding! So, that's like motivation to try and get better - fast!

2. When the board's wet, a casual player can have a really wide range of value hands (both marginal and strong), as well as a lot of junk ...

3. So maybe equity becomes especially key?

So ... okay, I guess we're supposed to be thinking about what turn cards we might want to double-barrel with on the turn (and what cards wouldn't be good for double-barreling). But so far I've been waiting until the turn to do that, because there's so much to think about on the flop


Maybe the following turn cards would add to our real equity?

T, K, any heart


And then the following would add some real equity, and some fold equity?

J, Q


And then the following might add some fold equity?

A


You know what, I had a hand yesterday where I double-barrelled and felt like a clown afterwards, when I saw that the villain had flopped TP - but it turns out my equity on the turn was actually pretty good. Guess there was always a chance some of my outs weren't good, but ... not sure I've always been double-barreling in spots like these, so maybe not double-barreling can sometimes be a mistake as well, when we have decent equity?

Click to show hidden text



Cliffs: CAUTION, student ranger
 
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Wed Jun 04, 2014, 01:23 PM
(#12)
Paddy Gar's Avatar
Since: Apr 2010
Posts: 439
Yeah Sam you're right about having a plan. I should have decided on what cards to barrell turn here, if i had I would not have bet on a 4 brick. Hearts, a queen/ king and ace would be the best cards to do it on.

I think in your hand villain has a really strong draw like yourself when they call turn or qx, but the turn bet could still fold out some better hands so i dont mind it personally.


Bracelet Winner

 
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Wed Jun 04, 2014, 01:26 PM
(#13)
TrustySam's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 8,291
BronzeStar
Actually, now that I think about it, what I'm really thinking on the turn usually is more like, "omg, villain called - now what??"

Which is the problem Hence the studies


Paddy, just posted a hand recently in my 2014 thread where I double-barrelled on a turn card that probably I shouldn't have either - think there's lots of us at 10nl who do that ... work in progress for a lot of us
 
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Thu Jun 05, 2014, 02:50 AM
(#14)
Roland GTX's Avatar
Since: Jan 2012
Posts: 1,905
I think the discussion has already covered things nicely here.

Preflop, I think calling is going to be better in the long run as our hand plays well enough postflop and isn't really strong enough to 3b for value. We are going to have position on the original raiser as well. As played, the btn calls your 3b. Without more information on him, I would put him on a range of Ax, pocket pairs and some suited connectors 109+.

Cbetting the flop looks good. You keep the initiative and have many ways to improve. When the villain calls I agree with Sandtrap that we need to slow down. About the only hand in the villain's range that we are beating would be J10. Hopefully we can check the turn and see the river for free. As played, you bet the turn and got called again. This is important imo for the river action.

Villain cold called our 3b pf, called flop and called turn. The villain is unknown but assumed to be a weaker player. If we were to generalize about a weaker recreational player, the first thing that comes to mind is that they tend to call too much. If we knew the villain was a chaser capable of folding a missed draw on the river, then we could consider firing a 3rd barrel, but here we don't know that. All the information indicates the opposite. Your line has been super strong, and betting the river is probably the only way to win the hand. However, I don't expect the villain to fold one pair hands here often enough to make bluff betting the river profitable.

Be careful with situations like this one when our plans go awry. I think the preflop 3b got you heading down a slippery slope on this one.
 
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Sun Jun 08, 2014, 07:32 PM
(#15)
TrustySam's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 8,291
BronzeStar
oops - posted in the wrong thread ... d'oh!
 
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Mon Jun 09, 2014, 05:16 AM
(#16)
braveslice's Avatar
Since: Feb 2013
Posts: 568
Isn’t KTs too weak to call? -> Thus it’s 3bet or fold

KTs 3b, KJs call (or something like that)

If KTs is a call, K9s should be 3b? That doesn’t make much sense.
 
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Mon Jun 09, 2014, 02:08 PM
(#17)
Roland GTX's Avatar
Since: Jan 2012
Posts: 1,905
Hi braveslice

At 10nl I don't worry too much about balancing my 3b range. For example, vs ep raisers, I don't 3b light at all. Against a btn raise when I'm in the sb, I do 3b much wider. Here the raiser is en an early position which tightens my 3b range. Firstly, they tend to have stronger hands when opening from early postion. Secondly, there are still 3 players left to act after us. If we get 4b we will be forced to fold. I think you can call since you do have postion on the raiser and a hand that is fairly easy to play postflop.

With K10s, in the CO, my play will vary depending on who is at the table. Sometimes it is an easy call. Sometimes it can be an easy fold, but I wouldn't 3b too often. Rather than balancing my 3b range vs ep raises, I try to balance my calling range. So, will sometimes call with premium hands like AK+.

I think we need to be careful about making general guidelines for when to 3b, 4b with non-premium hands. We really need to have a good handle on the situation, the players and the expected actions. In this particular hand I feel more good things can happen if we call whereas more bad things can happen if we 3b.

Make sense?
 
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Mon Jun 09, 2014, 02:19 PM
(#18)
Paddy Gar's Avatar
Since: Apr 2010
Posts: 439
I made the mistake in this hand of not looking at the players behind when making my play.

I think the 3bet was ok versus this specific player, his fold to 3bet was in the 70s and I believe I remember him having called 0 3bets oop in my sample. Might go back and check the hand again to see how big the sample size was.

IF i had seen that the button was a likely recreational player it may in fact have been a far better play to call pre and drag him into the pot with a good suited king.


Bracelet Winner

 
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Thu Jun 12, 2014, 04:23 AM
(#19)
braveslice's Avatar
Since: Feb 2013
Posts: 568
Hi Roland!

After some though I get your point, not to balance 3bet range.

However, this raises a second question in your answer: Why would we balance calling range? I mean with same logic there is no need to balance and thus we would only be losing money by not 3betting for value? Or by balancing, ¿do you mean calling only AK - (and AQ against a loose player)?
 
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Fri Jun 13, 2014, 06:56 AM
(#20)
Roland GTX's Avatar
Since: Jan 2012
Posts: 1,905
Hi braveslice

At 10nl or lower, I call with a much wider range than at higher stakes. Having a wide range is what I meant by balance as my calling range can contain many hands that I would either 3b or fold at higher stakes.

In my experience, players at the micros are more passive preflop. Thi allows me to call with all kinds of speculative hands from late position vs ep raisers since I don't expect to get squeezed that often. It is more likely that someone else calls behind which is good with speculative hands. Furthermore, it is common for 10nl or lower players to stack off with "just a pair" hands, both overpairs and tp. This means my chances of stacking someone when I hit my set, nut flush or straight is pretty good. Therefore, I take a passive line quite often and just call preflop. I do this most often with speculative hands like suited connectors and pocket pairs. I also do it frequently with strong unmade hands like AK, AQ, AJs or suited broadways. In certain situations I even do it with big pairs, but less frequently. Basically I consider calling with anything that plays well postflop. I only 3b with hands in spots that I can stack off with if I get 4b.

Basically, I call preflop, in position, quite wide when I feel I can outplay the other players postflop, either winning bigger pots or recognizing when I am behind.

All of this is still situational and player dependant. I'm not calling an utg raise 100% with A2s in the CO. I do alsways consider it though and do call with those hands quite often from the CO, btn and bb.

Make sense?
 

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