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Tough preflop decision !!

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Tough preflop decision !! - Wed Jun 11, 2014, 11:23 AM
(#1)
adikumar2010's Avatar
Since: Mar 2011
Posts: 1,094
It's Big $5.50, $20k Gtd. 10 mins blind level regular structure.

I am what to do here, his 3-bet size is very small which I don't know what that means

I don't care what the shove has, but I don't know what will he 3-bet so small with

PokerStars Hand #117393220761: Tournament #921326476, $5.00+$0.50 USD Hold'em No Limit - Level XII (150/300) - 2014/06/11 20:42:34 IST [2014/06/11 11:12:34 ET]
Table '921326476 85' 9-max Seat #2 is the button
Seat 1: danie_CZ (1690 in chips)
Seat 2: sjeeker (378 in chips) is sitting out
Seat 3: pakoyi321 (8180 in chips)
Seat 4: antai67 (18581 in chips)
Seat 5: junshao666 (16701 in chips)
Seat 6: adikumar2010 (9165 in chips)
Seat 7: pavel1697 (13220 in chips)
Seat 8: Funt1kk^ (10934 in chips)
Seat 9: r_dkGyn (5256 in chips)
danie_CZ: posts the ante 40
sjeeker: posts the ante 40
pakoyi321: posts the ante 40
antai67: posts the ante 40
junshao666: posts the ante 40
adikumar2010: posts the ante 40
pavel1697: posts the ante 40
Funt1kk^: posts the ante 40
r_dkGyn: posts the ante 40
pakoyi321: posts small blind 150
antai67: posts big blind 300
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to adikumar2010 [ ]
junshao666: folds
adikumar2010: raises 330 to 630
pavel1697: raises 670 to 1300
Funt1kk^: folds
r_dkGyn: folds
danie_CZ: raises 350 to 1650 and is all-in
sjeeker: folds
pakoyi321: folds
antai67: folds
adikumar2010:
pavel1697: Action Pending

STATS :
 
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Wed Jun 11, 2014, 11:54 AM
(#2)
JWK24's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 24,841
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Hi adikumar2010!

This is a fold and here's why.....

With 66 from UTG+1, even opening here is a bit light, so the overwhelming majority of the time, I'm folding to start with, especially looking at the opp's stack sizes, as two opps can easily be all-in due to being so short and I do not want to play a small pair in a multiway pot where the opps could be playing anything at me and end up against 4 or more overcards.

After the raise to 630, I now get 3-bet to 1300 and an opp then 4-bet shoves to 1650. This shove creates a very big problem because it's not a legal raise.

If it had been a legal raise (raise to 1970 or more), then I would have the possibility to re-raise to try and isolate the short-stack shove... but since it's not a legal raise, I'm not allowed to raise and all I can do is to call.

I now need to see if I can call to setmine. One opp's already all in and neither me nor the other opp have 15X this bet in our stacks.. so calling is definitely not an option.

If I can't raise and can't call.. then my option is to fold.

Hope this helps and good luck at the tables.

John (JWK24)


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Wed Jun 11, 2014, 12:01 PM
(#3)
adikumar2010's Avatar
Since: Mar 2011
Posts: 1,094
JWK I can shove I had that option but the 3-bettor can't shove if I just call. I think I remember I had option to re-raise that's the reason I put this hand on the forum.
 
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Wed Jun 11, 2014, 12:27 PM
(#4)
JWK24's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 24,841
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Hi adi!

Due to the non-legal raise... you lose the option to raise or shove (as does the 3-bettor). If you had not made an action in the hand yet, then you would have the option to raise... but not here.

Calling is totally out of the question, as the stack sizes are not deep enough to setmine.

John (JWK24)


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Wed Jun 11, 2014, 12:35 PM
(#5)
adikumar2010's Avatar
Since: Mar 2011
Posts: 1,094
But I recall having option to 5-bet and not just call. Because the player to my left made legal 3-bet size, so I have option to 5-bet him. The 4-bet under raise shove will have impact on the 3-bettor (he can't 5-bet if someone also cold calls the 4-bet). But me being 2-bettor and getting a legit 3-bet, I had the option of 5-betting.

I am sure that's the reason I posted that hand here otherwise I am folding it any day.
 
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Wed Jun 11, 2014, 12:38 PM
(#6)
JWK24's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 24,841
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You raised by 330 (legal raise). pavel raised by 670 (legal raise). danie raises by 350 (non-legal raise, as a legal raise would need to be to at least 670 more than the previous bet).

The non-legal raise kills all action from players that had the opportunity to act previously. They can now just fold or call... they cannot raise.

John (JWK24)


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Wed Jun 11, 2014, 12:44 PM
(#7)
adikumar2010's Avatar
Since: Mar 2011
Posts: 1,094
Yes no one else can raise they can only cold-call 4-bet shove, but I can raise coz I got 3-bet.

I will get back to you, after cross-checking it.
 
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Wed Jun 11, 2014, 12:47 PM
(#8)
Sandtrap777's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 3,310
adik,

You really like to argue............LOL
John is right, you can ONLY call, you didn't have the possibility to raise
 
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Wed Jun 11, 2014, 12:50 PM
(#9)
adikumar2010's Avatar
Since: Mar 2011
Posts: 1,094
I thought I can raise, I could be wrong. I am just re-checking the hand history. If I can't raise then we can remove this hand from the forum.
 
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Wed Jun 11, 2014, 01:05 PM
(#10)
adikumar2010's Avatar
Since: Mar 2011
Posts: 1,094
There you go :


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Last edited by adikumar2010; Wed Jun 11, 2014 at 01:17 PM..
 
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Wed Jun 11, 2014, 01:09 PM
(#11)
JWK24's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 24,841
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I don't know who any of those people are.. but it says to me that NONE of them understand what a legal raise is!

John (JWK24)


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Wed Jun 11, 2014, 01:19 PM
(#12)
Sandtrap777's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 3,310
You got a problem with my face??
Your attitude leaves to be desired

Facebook...lol, they all play on Zinga poker...lol
I'll leave you to argue with John on every post you make
GL
 
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Wed Jun 11, 2014, 01:20 PM
(#13)
adikumar2010's Avatar
Since: Mar 2011
Posts: 1,094
It's fine John, no problem if you are saying you must be correct. And I might have not got that option of re-raising. I aplogize for wasting your time and arguing with you.
 
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Wed Jun 11, 2014, 01:22 PM
(#14)
adikumar2010's Avatar
Since: Mar 2011
Posts: 1,094
No offense sandtrap. I was joking not seriously saying anything. I am sorry if you felt bad I was just throwing a counter-punch.
 
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Wed Jun 11, 2014, 02:51 PM
(#15)
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,517
(Head Trainer)
Hey guys,

Sorry to jump in, but adi can reshove.

The shorty shoving doesn't reopen the betting to the 3-bettor, but adi can shove because the action has already been reopened to him by the initial 3-bettor.

Pretend the 3-bettor isn't between them. Adi raises, the shorty shoves, then someone cold calls... adi could def reshove.

Edit: To put another way, adi has faced a full legal raise from the 3-bettor, allowing him to reraise, regardless o the shorty coming into the pot. Adi is reraising the 3-bettor. It's easy to get confused with this action sequence, but adi can definitely reshove here.


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Wed Jun 11, 2014, 03:01 PM
(#16)
Sandtrap777's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 3,310
Then I'm sorry adi

Now I'm all confuse, at what occasion when someone doesn't make a full bet raise, aren't we able to raise? or is it in another situation?
When do we get block from raising and can only call?

Poker is a game were we always learn and this part I thought I knew, go figure.
 
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Wed Jun 11, 2014, 03:03 PM
(#17)
JWK24's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 24,841
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Hi adikumar2010!

Sorry about this one, it's a mistake on my part. I faced the exact same situation when playing live a few months ago and when it got back to me, I was only allowed to call or fold (which I didn't think twice about due to the shorty's bet not being a legal raise).... guess the casino screwed it up too, just like I did.

John (JWK24)

With the option to re-raise, then I need to see what the opp's range is and as a total unknown that has not played a hand in 17 hands, they should have a tight range. If the opp has say a 5% 3-bet range (99+,AJs+,KQs,AKo), then I'm a 2-1 underdog (34%) to a range where the overwhelming majority of it will call a shove... meaning that I will not have very much fold equity (AJs, AQs and 99 or TT may fold but the rest should call me). With this being the case, then I'm going to fold and let the other two opps go at it.


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Wed Jun 11, 2014, 03:06 PM
(#18)
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,517
(Head Trainer)
In order for a player who has bet or raised, to be able to raise again in the same betting round, the action must be re-opened to them by a full legal raise after their bet.

adikumar2010: raises 330 to 630
pavel1697: raises 670 to 1300

That has happened right here, at this point adi can raise again regardless of what happens after pavel. (except of course, if someone who covers adi shoved all in, to where adi only had enough chips left to call all in)


Quote:
Originally Posted by Sandtrap777 View Post
Now I'm all confuse, at what occasion when someone doesn't make a full bet raise, aren't we able to raise? or is it in another situation?
When do we get block from raising and can only call?
In this case, Pavel has not faced a legal raise (the shorty doesn't have enough), so no one has reopened the betting to Pavel yet. If adi just calls, then pavel can only call or fold, he can't raise again. Since Pavel was the last player to make a full legal raise, he would in effect be raising himself if allowed to raise again, can't do that. Adi's shove would not be raising himself, since he did not make the last full legal raise, adi is reraising Pavel.

Hope this helps.


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Wed Jun 11, 2014, 03:16 PM
(#19)
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,517
(Head Trainer)
Quote:
Originally Posted by JWK24 View Post
I faced the exact same situation when playing live a few months ago and when it got back to me, I was only allowed to call or fold (which I didn't think twice about due to the shorty's bet not being a legal raise).... guess the casino screwed it up too, just like I did.
The floor ruling was incorrect (or if it was a dealer, they were wrong). Knowing exactly where this took place, I'm not surprised... there are both dealers and floors there that aren't very clear on the rules when a non-common situation comes up.


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Wed Jun 11, 2014, 09:23 PM
(#20)
andrewj50050's Avatar
Since: Nov 2010
Posts: 508
Been in this spot a few times on pokerstars. i am sure this is correct Dave but i'm not 100% sure PS follow those rules i'm pretty sure i have opened a pot before got 3 bet followed by a shortstack all in then had no reraise button FEELING CONFUSED WHY NOT :-S.. its a strange one. U'd be surprised how many people are unclear on this ruling.
 

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