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Balancing flop lines UTG v MP

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Balancing flop lines UTG v MP - Fri Jun 13, 2014, 03:13 PM
(#1)
geoVARTA's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 1,306
Hey guys , since this is now the "Advanced" NLHE Cash Games forum, I thought I'd drop something here that I've been thinking about for I don't know how many hours now

This is a UTG vs MP hypothetical scenario (well not so hypothetical since this came up from my hand review session from my HM)basically, I opened with from UTG and got called by MP who's somewhat a TAG-ish regular and the flop came: . So what I was trying to do is see how our entire range can play on this flop. Eventually, I got my mind confused so I'm looking for some input. Here we go...


UTG PFR range: {AA-22, AK-AJ, KQ, KJs, ATs, KTs, QTs, QJs-98s, A5s-A2s} 14.4%

MP calling range: {QQ-22, AK, AQ, AJs, KQs, KJs} 8.3%

Preflop, these range are even money. OTF of , our range now gets a 5% increase.

Inspired by Mathew Janda, I went ahead and tried to think about what hands we bet for value, what hands we bet with draws, what hands x/c or x/r.

We start off with 169 combos

Betting for value range: AA(3), KK(6), QQ(6), JJ(3), AJ(12), JTs(2), 98s(4) : 32
Betting with draws: - (4), (1), (1), KQ(16), AK(9), AQ(9),(1), (1): 42

Total Betting combos: 74 (44%)

Check/folding range: 42
Check/Calling range: T9s(4), QTs(3), KTs(3), ATs(4), QJs(3), KJs(3), AK(6), AQ(6): 32
Check/Raising range: 99(6), 88(6), AdAx(3), TT(3), 77(3) : 21

Total Checks: 94 (56%)
Total Checks defended: 53 (56%)

I'm not too happy with our betting frequency here I think we might be betting too little, and defending our checks too much. Which kind of makes our betting range weighted more towards draws and our checking range becomes way too strong that our opponent could check back and deny us the check raises? What do you think about our villain's calling/raising lines OTF and how would this impact our balancing?
 
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Sat Jun 14, 2014, 05:55 AM
(#2)
mike2198's Avatar
Since: Jan 2013
Posts: 1,485
Doesn't Janda put one nut flush draw in his x/c range so were strong on a diamond turn some of the time not that one combo makes any difference really but your x/c range don't look like it can stand a 3 barrel unless your gonna bluff catch stuff like KJ for 3 streets.
 
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Sat Jun 14, 2014, 06:18 AM
(#3)
geoVARTA's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 1,306
Yea, I'm not sure mike. UTG vs MP... ranges are damn too tight. I'm not even sure if it's worth applying such balance anyways Nevertheless, it's good to think about these stuff once in a while.
 
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Sat Jun 14, 2014, 03:02 PM
(#4)
geoVARTA's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 1,306
re-opening.
 
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Mon Jun 16, 2014, 11:18 AM
(#5)
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,499
(Head Trainer)
Hi George,

Nice, heady topic!

Ok so firstly I agree that c-betting 44% is too low a frequency vs. a competent opponent. This is a dynamic board that is going to favor the player in position, and they are a presumably a competent player, so I would generally c-bet this situation a bit less than normal... I would be targeting maybe 60% here. That means I'd like to get near 101 combos.

One thing I notice in your range distribution that I think is a problem is that your check/calling range is overly weak. The strongest hand you've seeded into there is KJs. There are very few hands in this range that are candidate hands to check/call 3 streets without improving. KJ/QJ are the strongest unimproved hands which is only 6 combos and they are fairly weak 3 street call downs as is. What this means is our competent opponents can just begin firing when we check, and simply barrel our check/calling range with 2 napkins and show a profit. I think we want to protect this range by seeding in a few strong hands that would be our candidates to c/c 3 streets, and a few draws so we can have the nuts sometimes when we check/call and the draw comes in.

With the distributions you've set up, that's a problem, as those extra hands would largely come from our betting range, creating an even bigger gap between the # of combos we're betting and the target number we'd like to reach.

For me, the solution to this problem is to eliminate the check/raising range. I almost never check/raise the flop as the preflop raiser, and I don't think (imho) that we need to have a range for this unless we're taking an exploitative line vs. some specific villain. Part of why I operate that way is because having one damages our other ranges, making it hard to have decent frequencies. When we check, if we are always c/f or c/c the flop I don't think that's any problem at all, as long as we c/c with a decently balanced range as per above.

So, I might pull Ad2d-Ad5d into our c/c range. This gives us 4 nut flush draw combos for the times the diamonds come in. I would leave the AK/AQ/KT/QTdd in my c-betting range because they have too much equity to not bet imo. I think we can also pull some combos of KQ into our c/c range for similar reasons. I would generally like to bet the KdQd/KhQh/KdQx/KxQd, so this leaves us 8 combos being bet and 8 being checked. And I would hold back some combos of KK/QQ, maybe the non-diamond containing combos, and maybe 4 combos of AJ... that's 10 combos that will be our primary candidate made hands to c/c 3 streets.

So that brings your c-bet range down to 52 hands, I need to find another 49 or so to be betting. Let's start with the obvious ones from our c/r range that we're doing away with: 99(6), 88(6), AdAx(3), TT(3), 77(3) is 21 combos, so I'm up to 73. I'll pull top pair+back door hearts from my c/c range into the betting range, so KhJh/QhJh is 2 more. QTs might be nice to move over with it's back door straight potential, that's 3 more so we're up to 78. I might add ATs to that as well for 3 more since our kicker pips all his tens, and leave KTs in the c/c range. So I'm up to 81, and need about 20 more. A2-A5hh is the next obvious choice for a bluff, since it can morph into a hand that can win a huge pot when we go running hearts. That's 85, 16 to go. Maybe I'll pull another combo each of KJs/QJs, and a couple pocket pairs, which is 14 more or 99 total combos (59%, close enough).

You can tweak the bottom of the betting range and shuffle some of the marginal stuff around in both categories and it's not going to make a big difference... the important things imo are to have a decent enough betting frequency such that a competent player can't have their way with us by just seeing flops in position, and a balanced c/c range so they likewise can't just bet/bet/bet and print money when we check the flop.


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Mon Jun 16, 2014, 01:26 PM
(#6)
mike2198's Avatar
Since: Jan 2013
Posts: 1,485
Dave, At what stakes do you think you would need to start doing stuff like this? I thought this is the kind of stuff you wouldn't need to do un till like 200nl.
 
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Mon Jun 16, 2014, 02:40 PM
(#7)
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,499
(Head Trainer)
You could start doing it at any stakes Mike.

It's probably pretty crucial at like 500nl+, where more villains will be able to identify and exploit bad frequencies.


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Mon Jun 16, 2014, 03:09 PM
(#8)
mike2198's Avatar
Since: Jan 2013
Posts: 1,485
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheLangolier View Post
You could start doing it at any stakes Mike.

It's probably pretty crucial at like 500nl+, where more villains will be able to identify and exploit bad frequencies.
That's what i wanted to hear i really don't even want to attempt trying to balance my range for all those different board textures. I do have some strong hands on some boards when i x/c and good top pair but to try and perfect your range and then memorize it would be a little to hard for me i think.
 
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Mon Jun 16, 2014, 05:55 PM
(#9)
Paddy Gar's Avatar
Since: Apr 2010
Posts: 439
I just try to think of my range when i take a line during a hand and decide if i do a certain action is it too value heavy or bluff heavy. If it is then I'll either add some value/bluffs combos in or not take the action at all.

That's my starting point anyways.


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Tue Jun 17, 2014, 09:22 AM
(#10)
MrFlopes's Avatar
Since: Apr 2012
Posts: 152
What about, for guys like me that don't have memory for this level of balancing, just adding some fear equity and turn made hands into bluffs by raising river? No need to balance, just one or two of those would take a villains manhood for quite some hands and be less prone to blow us out of hand that often. Is this a tool or just dumb?
 

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