Home / Community / Forum / Poker Education / Poker Education & Beginners Questions /

Staking Deal for cash games?

Old
Default
Staking Deal for cash games? - Mon Jun 16, 2014, 03:30 PM
(#1)
adikumar2010's Avatar
Since: Mar 2011
Posts: 1,094
I need help, here is the deal that poker room is offering me I know it's in favor of them

Can you plz tell me what modifications should I ask house to make for the deal to be equally fair for me

Quote:
So,

There is one poker room in my city which is ready to stake me.

Stakes: 100/100 ($2/$2)
Min Buyin : 5000 (But I sit with 10,000 full stack)
Average Stack at table : 11,000
* $1 = ~Rs.50

1. I can lose maximum of 30,000 per day and I can sit with whatever amount I want upto 30k.
2. Profits will be divided 50:50 after makeup.
3. I will get my 50% profit after I am UP 100k. So once I make 100k for the staker I will get 50k that day and no cashout before that.
4. After that a new cycle starts again and I have to make 100k to get my 50k. So everytime I win 100k, a new staking deal begins.
5. I might have to go early for there game so that they don't fall short of players and there game starts on time.
6. Suppose I am down 100k after 30 session and I no longer want to continue. I can leave staking deal by paying 50% loss i.e. 50k.
7. Other way of quitting is if I am even or winning and no longer want to continue.
8. I can not quit when I am down. I will have to keep playing to recover losses of the staker.
9. House can bear maximum 1,000,000 loss.
Looking at this this deal it's made 100% in the favor of house , can you plz suggest what is the standard deal for cash games these days.

And what all changes should I tell them to make to this deal so that it's not -EV for me
 
Old
Default
Mon Jun 16, 2014, 03:40 PM
(#2)
baud2death's Avatar
Since: Nov 2012
Posts: 1,249
BronzeStar
This looks so complicated... Why not just play regular games?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Old
Default
Mon Jun 16, 2014, 03:43 PM
(#3)
adikumar2010's Avatar
Since: Mar 2011
Posts: 1,094
I know it's stupid deal, but I think after I make some changes to this I will be good to go.

My bankroll allows me to play $1/$1 game but problem is these games are hard to find in my city, $1/$2 is the most common here.

PS: This game is extremely fishy, I won $900 in 3 hours just now.
 
Old
Default
Mon Jun 16, 2014, 04:57 PM
(#4)
95NiX's Avatar
Since: Apr 2011
Posts: 115
If I were you, I would have written down the advantages and disadvantages of a possible deal.

So why would you even consider the deal ?? If you are playing without a staking deal you pay 100% of the losses, but also win 100%, otherwise you win only 50% and pay 50%. I mean the costs / profits relationship is the same.

However, when you take the deal, you limit yourself in your freedom. You only get paid out when you reach 100K, while otherwise you can cashout whenever you want and have a reasonably steady income. With a deal you have a bunch of money in one time, which can give you a wrong impression of your spendable income, not considering the fact that it may take a while to reach 100K, which means a long time no cashout. Also point 5 is a clear example of limitation in freedom: you are committed to play sometimes, because otherwise there are not enough players (maybe even at times/situations you would normally not play?)

I also don't like point 7. What if you are winning, but want to quit the deal, because you are stuck at 70K profit or something. Will you still get 50% of this 70K profit, or lose it all to the staker?



Sorry, but I don't see any but disadvantages in this deal.

Correct me if I'm wrong


Bracelet Winner

 
Old
Default
Mon Jun 16, 2014, 05:13 PM
(#5)
adikumar2010's Avatar
Since: Mar 2011
Posts: 1,094
Quote:
Originally Posted by 95NiX View Post
I also don't like point 7. What if you are winning, but want to quit the deal, because you are stuck at 70K profit or something. Will you still get 50% of this 70K profit, or lose it all to the staker?
Even if I am up like 10k, I can quit anytime and take 50% profit, no need to hit 100k mark in that case when I want to leave.

You are right it's totally unfair that's why I asked you guys to tell me what modification should I ask the staker to make in this deal to make it reasonable for me.
 
Old
Default
Mon Jun 16, 2014, 05:45 PM
(#6)
95NiX's Avatar
Since: Apr 2011
Posts: 115
Well, that is at least one plus point. If I were you I would make sure to get more than 50% percent of the losses while paying less than 50% of the costs. For example a 60/40 ratio. With this way you are actually rewarded for your work and invested hours at the tables. The staker only provides money, so his share should be less in my opinion. I mean, the cardroom knows that you are a profitable player, otherwise they would never offer you a deal. Use this in your advantage while negotiating the terms of the deal. If they still aren't reasonable after some negiotiating, just decline the deal and continue to play your own game. If they really want you, they come up with more attractive terms.

I also would try to lower the limit of 100K to something like 25K or 30K. 100K is a 10x full stack, which can take a reasonable amount of time to reach. I think it also more motivating to have a goal which takes less time to reach.


Bracelet Winner

 
Old
Default
Tue Jun 17, 2014, 12:05 AM
(#7)
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,481
(Head Trainer)
Adi asked me for my thoughts here... tbh I have no idea, I've never been involved in cash game staking live before. It's not very common afaik because it's hard to track and easy for a horse to pocket cash, so most of the time it'll be done with a horse the backer trusts very well. It's not like online where you can get HH's or stat tracker dumps, or mtt's where buy ins can be substantiated with a receipt and cashes are on record.

The thoughts off the top of my head...

-It sounds like the house (or an 'owner' of the establishment) is making this stake offer to you? This sounds like a good vote of confidence that they think you can beat their game, as they probably aren't interested in lighting money on fire.

-If you are adequately rolled for the game (you can sustain some downswings without going busto) then you should almost certainly decline. If you are +EV enough that the house is ready to back you, it's better if you can back you 100% so you keep 100% of the profits.

-If you take this deal, you will have zero financial risk if I understand it correctly... the backer is taking all the risk, and getting 50% of the profit once you reach 100K (again they must feel very confident in you to beat this game). So.... this sounds like something to pursue if:

A) You are not comfortably rolled for the game yet. Growing your roll will be slower, as you have to give up half the profits, but the risk of ruin is zero since you have none of your personal roll at stake.

B) You are moving up in stakes where there is both more pressure on your roll and more uncertainty about your EV in the game.

One thing to consider that would be a tick in the box for doing a deal... you mentioned in a prior post that when you get up solidly, you tend to alter your game to protect the win (in effect, "playing scared") and felt it may be prohibiting you from some monster sessions. If you have zero financial risk at stake this should no longer be a barrier. It might help you get comfortable with playing through that spot, both when you do go on to book a monster win, and when the wheels fall off and you fall back down to earth in a session. Learning to deal with the highs and lows of this on the houses dime isn't a bad idea.

As for suggested changes... I'm not sure... 95Nix had a good one, lowering the limit of 100K to cash out your profits. Even 50K would be better. Another option would be a shifting % in your favor. You could maybe propose the deal go in tiers like this:

Tier 1: 100K/50% cut when reached
Tier 2: 50K/50% cut when reached
Tier 3: 50K/60%-40% cut in your favor when reached

This way as you prove yourself, your deal gets better. You could negotiate a carrot into this, like saying if you bust the first 100K, the 2nd shifts the % in the houses favor 40-60, if you bust that 100K then the 3rd shifts 30-70, and so forth. It's somewhat of a hollow carrot, since both you and they expect you to be profitable, but it may improve their willingness to give you favorable tiers for good performance.


Head Live Trainer
Check out my Videos

4 Time Bracelet Winner



 
Old
Default
Tue Jun 17, 2014, 07:48 PM
(#8)
adikumar2010's Avatar
Since: Mar 2011
Posts: 1,094
Mr.Hitman I was thinking to ask them to make these 2 changes :

1) 50% profit to be divided after every session ends. Loses will be carried forward as they maintain a book
2) I don't owe house anything if I lose 100k or 300k or 500k. I will not pay 50% of the losses to exit the deal

Do you think these points are valid or am I asking for too much i.e. something which never happens in a standard cash game deal?

PS: They think I am the best player LOL , it's like everyone sucks in that game. That even a person like me appears to be of a pro calibre to them
 
Old
Default
Tue Jun 17, 2014, 09:57 PM
(#9)
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,481
(Head Trainer)
As I said, I have no idea what a standard cash staking deal would be in a live cardroom, I've never been involved in one.

The buy out of half your losses only applies if you quit them in makeup, right? If they drop you at any time you don't have to pay. They make it clear they will quit you at 1M lost, but obviously could cut you off any time at their discretion.

I doubt they would say you could walk away of your own choice and stick them with a loss... I wouldn't.


Head Live Trainer
Check out my Videos

4 Time Bracelet Winner



 
Old
Default
Wed Jun 18, 2014, 07:05 AM
(#10)
adikumar2010's Avatar
Since: Mar 2011
Posts: 1,094
I don't think the staking deal will help me change that mindset, coz in this staking deal at the back of my head there is one thing going on continously i.e. if I lose 600K for the house and want to quit from where will I get 300K to pay them

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheLangolier View Post
One thing to consider that would be a tick in the box for doing a deal... you mentioned in a prior post that when you get up solidly, you tend to alter your game to protect the win (in effect, "playing scared") and felt it may be prohibiting you from some monster sessions. If you have zero financial risk at stake this should no longer be a barrier. It might help you get comfortable with playing through that spot, both when you do go on to book a monster win, and when the wheels fall off and you fall back down to earth in a session. Learning to deal with the highs and lows of this on the houses dime isn't a bad idea.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Yes I have to pay 50% losses only when I am losing overall for the house & I choose to not continue. If they throw me out then I don't have to pay anything.

Also they can go over more then 1 million or they can throw me even if I am 300k down, depending on them. But I doubt they will throw me out as they will never bear all the losses alone. Only in worst case scenario if I lose 30 sessions in a row then they might throw me out.

When I am down & they will not let me quit on my own choice most probably, coz they are making rake also as I am a daily house player, so they will recover some losses from rakes also.

But I should atleast ask for 60-40 cut in my favor and also ask them to make 50K the cashout slab, as most of the things are in favor of them already.

Like :
- I will get my 50% profit after I am UP 100k. So once I make 100k for the staker I will get 50k that day and no cashout before that.
- I might have to go early for there game so that they don't fall short of players and there game starts on time.
- Suppose I am down 100k after 30 session and I no longer want to continue. I can leave staking deal by paying 50% loss i.e. 50k.
- I can not quit when I am down. I will have to keep playing to recover losses of the staker.

Last edited by adikumar2010; Wed Jun 18, 2014 at 07:18 AM..
 
Old
Default
Mon Jun 30, 2014, 12:14 PM
(#11)
adikumar2010's Avatar
Since: Mar 2011
Posts: 1,094
I got one more deal from another poker room in my city which is ready to stake me.

Stakes: 100/200 ($2/$4, 400 NL)
Min Buyin : 10000 (But I sit with 20,000 full stack)
Average Stack at table : 30,000 ($600)
* $1 = ~Rs.50

I will compare both the deals:

Quote:
1. I can lose maximum of 30,000 per day and I can sit with whatever amount I want upto 30k.
1. No daily limit on losses and I can sit with whatever amount I like. (I dont know if it's better or worse for me)

Quote:
2. Profits will be divided 50:50 after makeup.
2. Profits will be divided 50:50 after makeup (Same)

Quote:
3. I will get my 50% profit after I am UP 100k. So once I make 100k for the staker I will get 50k that day and no cashout before that.
3. I will get my 50% profit after I am UP 50K. So once I make 50k for the staker I will get 25k that day and no cashout before that. (Relaxation for me as cashout is at 50k which can be reached after 2-3 sessions)

Quote:
4. After that a new cycle starts again and I have to make 100k to get my 50k. So everytime I win 100k, a new staking deal begins.
4. After that a new cycle starts again and I have to make 50k to get my 25k. So everytime I win 50k, a new staking deal begins (Change in the slab, good for me)

Quote:
5. I might have to go early for there game so that they don't fall short of players and there game starts on time.
5. I might have to go early for there game so that they don't fall short of players and there game starts on time (Same Issue)

Quote:
6. Suppose I am down 100k after 30 session and I no longer want to continue. I can leave staking deal by paying 50% loss i.e. 50k.
6. Suppose I am down 200k after 30 session and I no longer want to continue. I can leave staking deal by paying 0% loss (I can't quit when I want but can talk staker into dropping me out, so if he thinks I am losing money for him and I'm not playing good game he will throw me and I don't have to pay anything)

Quote:
7. Other way of quitting is if I am even or winning and no longer want to continue.
7. Other way of quitting is if I am even or winning and no longer want to continue. (Same)

Quote:
8. I can not quit when I am down. I will have to keep playing to recover losses of the staker.
8. I can not quit when I am down. I will have to keep playing to recover losses of the staker. (Same)

Quote:
9. House can bear maximum 1,000,000 loss.
9. House can bear maximum 1,000,000 loss. (Same)


* So can you tell me which deal is better, 2nd one looks better for sure. Only thing is it takes me to 1 staker higher, which I don't know whether it's good or bad for me?

Last edited by adikumar2010; Mon Jun 30, 2014 at 12:37 PM..
 
Old
Default
Mon Jun 30, 2014, 01:28 PM
(#12)
95NiX's Avatar
Since: Apr 2011
Posts: 115
2nd one looks indeed better. You don't have to pay the losses and you now have to earn half of the profit (100K instead of 50K) to get a cashout. First deal has no advantages for you as you have to pay 50% of the losses and only earn 50% of the profit.

If you don't like the stakes, you could talk to the cardroom to start at stakes which are comfortable for you and move up when you have a decent profit


Bracelet Winner

 
Old
Default
Mon Jun 30, 2014, 02:49 PM
(#13)
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,481
(Head Trainer)
Are you comfortable with the stakes in the 2nd one? Have you played them?

According to you, at the lower stake game you are already crushing it. This fact alone would lean me toward the higher stake, even if you haven't played it yet.

Payouts are better when winning. #6 seems the similar, if you're losing you can't quit, but they can toss you and you owe nothing. First one offers a buy out option for you to voluntarily quit when down, second one seems to not offer this but if you can talk him into dropping you then you're out with no out of pocket.

In both cases though, they have the max loss set at 1M then they drop you automatically. So it seems to me this is an escape clause that is in your favor (probably unintentionally). Let's say in the 2nd deal you're down 600K and go to him and say look, I'm not able to beat this stake/game (or whatever) and I want out, and he says no, I won't let you go, you have to try and win in it back. At this point you have 400K to go to be automatically out anyway. I'm not saying you should throw the 400K, never... but you certainly might take a more aggressive approach and press some more high variance spots. Which will increase the swings. If it goes well (which is the goal) you'll get out of the hole relatively quickly and make some profit. If not, you'll get the out you wanted anyway.

All in all the 2nd deal seems better imo, both in the terms of the deal and in joining with your long term goal of growing a roll.


Head Live Trainer
Check out my Videos

4 Time Bracelet Winner



 
Old
Default
Mon Jun 30, 2014, 03:21 PM
(#14)
adikumar2010's Avatar
Since: Mar 2011
Posts: 1,094
Ok thanks I have played 2nd deal stakes $2/$4 and is in overall profit although I have played this stakes like 20 sessions. Yes I am winning in $2/$2 and $1/$1 game easily.

But I think I can give it a try if I can't handle it I will go back to $2/$2 stakes. As 2nd deal cashout mark is 50K which is more reasonable.
 
Old
Default
Mon Jun 30, 2014, 05:40 PM
(#15)
sparkes25's Avatar
Since: Feb 2013
Posts: 645
i know a number of people that have cash game staking deals and i have had one myself in the past for playing live £1/£2 cash plo. some of the rules i had that differ from the deals above are as follows.



50% of profit cash out on the last day of the month, if not in profit then the loose is carried over to following month.

60% profit is paid out if a horse makes more then a set target for the month

horse can take days off if he hits a target profit each month (if he wants to).

a max of 3 buy-ins can be used in any 1 day.

the horse can stradle if he feels the players at the table are weak.

the horse can play at higher stakes if there is a higher stakes game running in the club that is short handed

the horse can play lower stakes if he wishes

the horse can not prop bet when playing


now my backing deal was simple, i had a max of 3 x £400 buy-ins per day, my target per month was £12000 per month and once i hit that i would get a 60% cut on any profit over that and could take days off if i wanted.

my deal would be reviewed each month.

i could quit at any time.

almost everyone i know has there profit paid out on a set day of the month, the good thing about this is you can step down a level if you are running bad and still make profit and get a pay out, but if you stepped down it would just take you longer to get to your $100k or 50k target.
 

Getting PokerStars is easy: download and install the PokerStars game software, create your free player account, and validate your email address. Clicking on the download poker button will lead to the installation of compatible poker software on your PC of 51.7 MB, which will enable you to register and play poker on the PokerStars platform. To uninstall PokerStars use the Windows uninstaller: click Start > Control Panel and then select Add or Remove programs > Select PokerStars and click Uninstall or Remove.

Copyright (c) PokerSchoolOnline.com. All rights reserved, Rational Group, Douglas Bay Complex, King Edward Road, Onchan, Isle of Man, IM3 1DZ. You can email us on support@pokerschoolonline.com