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6max zoom - JJ

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6max zoom - JJ - Wed Jun 18, 2014, 03:07 PM
(#1)
pullin1988's Avatar
Since: Apr 2013
Posts: 717
Hi guys,



This is against a villain with no reads. Just started playing 6max.

I am becoming unsure about betting the turn, when a flush completes. I bet under 1/2pot because I want worse to call. Is this usually the default right play, since villain could have worse? If called should the default to be x the river?

Cheers,


Matt
 
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Wed Jun 18, 2014, 04:51 PM
(#2)
ArtySmokesPS's Avatar
Since: Oct 2011
Posts: 7,355
I usually check back the turn, in order to sometimes get value from worse on the river.

The 3h on the turn is a scare card, like an ace or king would be. Your relative hand value changes completely. Prior to the turn, you have an overpair, which is a strong hand, so would be looking to get three streets of value from top pair and (missed) draws that may bluff the river. On that turn card, you only have marginal SDV, since you're now crushed by flushes, so the plan has to change.
The turn either scares the hell out of villain when he has one pair or an OESD, or it's gin for his flush draw.
If you check it back, you can get to showdown. You can call all river bets, bet yourself on safe cards, or check back when unsure. When you bet the turn repping strength, villain folds all his junk and often only continues with monsters.
In short, when a card comes that radically alters the strength of each player's range, change your plan accordingly. If your hand value suddenly takes a nosedive, it's usually best to stop shoveling money into the pot. It's the same thing I keep banging on about: You have showdown value, so try and get to showdown.


Bracelet Winner
 
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Wed Jun 18, 2014, 05:53 PM
(#3)
pullin1988's Avatar
Since: Apr 2013
Posts: 717
Hi Arty,

Quote:
It's the same thing I keep banging on about: You have showdown value, so try and get to showdown
and please continue to keep banging on about it. As you can tell it's taking me a very long time to get this stuff

Arty please answer this: If I check turn and villain bets 1/2pot or greater on river which brings a blank (so that showdown value at this point does not change) you say I can call all river bets, even though he may not be bettting with worse...so it's not a X/F then?

Also, what about if I am OOP, X/F Turn?

Cheers,

Matt
 
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Wed Jun 18, 2014, 06:37 PM
(#4)
ArtySmokesPS's Avatar
Since: Oct 2011
Posts: 7,355
If you check the turn, and villain bets half pot on the riv, you're putting just as much money into the pot as you would if you'd bet half pot on the turn, but with one key difference: You're guaranteed to see a showdown and to realize your equity. You'll literally get the money that your hand is worth. That can't happen if you bet-fold the turn.

In addition, if villain half pots the river after the turn goes x-x, you only need to have the best hand a third of the time to break even. By checking back the turn, you keep all of villain's trash in play, which means you'll definitely win at least a third of the time, as he'll have to bluff the river (with stuff like J9 and 77) that can't win at showdown. By checking the turn, you'll also induce villain to v-bet stuff like KT that he mistakenly thinks is the best hand.

By contrast, when you bet the turn and get check-raised, you have to fold, when you probably had 20% equity, or might even have had the best hand.
Even if villain just calls the turn barrel, you're in bad shape, because you fold out so many weak hands, leaving villain with a stronger river range.
When your hand is medium strength (one pair), then you should want the worse hands to still be in play, because that's how you get value from them on a later street.
Overall, checking back the turn loses the minimum when villain has you beat (you don't get stacked by flushes), but still gets two streets of value when villain has worse.

If you played the hand OOP, there's an argument for checking the flop (I c-bet this board with a pretty low frequency, and basically just use JJ/Tx as bluff-catchers), but if you c-bet, then the turn is kind of a mandatory check-call for me. On the river, a check-fold would make most sense. On a board like that, you don't mind putting money in the pot twice, but JJ isn't worth 3 streets, so the river would be a fold. (A typical villain would pretty much always have a flush if he fires the river after you check-called on a flushy turn).

Basically, when the board gets ugly for your made hand, go into pot control or "I want to get to showdown" mode. Evaluate your relative strength correctly, and polarize your betting: Bet and raise with monsters/air, check and call with one pair. Easy game.


Bracelet Winner
 
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Wed Jun 18, 2014, 11:35 PM
(#5)
TrustySam's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 8,291
BronzeStar
Hey Pullin - went and checked my database, and it looks like the vast majority of the time where I didn't turn a flush draw to go with my TP or overpair, I checked when the turn brought 3-to-a-flush as well.

Although there were times where I bet as well, and the results for both checks and bets seemed to be all across the board, which I thought you might find interesting to see. So here's some similar hands of mine from my 2nl zoom 6m from about two years ago. They were all versus recreationals, so there were few if any HUD stats.


1. Checked the turn, and villain had actually turned a flush (multi-way pot)

Click to show hidden text


2. Checked the turn and got outdrawn by flopped gutter that might have folded to a turn bet

Click to show hidden text


3. Checked the turn, got to showdown and was good

Click to show hidden text


4. Checked the turn, mini-bet the river, and got mini-reraised, called and was good

Click to show hidden text


5. Bet the turn, and got called by worse (probably could have bet the river instead)

Click to show hidden text


6. Bet the turn, and got called by worse (probably could not have bet the river instead)

Click to show hidden text


7. Bet the turn, and was met with a fold

Click to show hidden text


8. Bet the turn (with 2nd pair and a turned flush draw that turned out not to be good), got called by worse, and got outdrawn

Click to show hidden text



GL with 6-max!


PS So yeah, these hands are from almost 2 years ago, back when I was still pretty much a beginner. So please everybody keep that in mind, thanks!
 
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Thu Jun 19, 2014, 05:44 AM
(#6)
pullin1988's Avatar
Since: Apr 2013
Posts: 717
Cheers Arty & TrustySam.

Those hands are very interesting; thanks for posting those and thanks for the advice.

Graph onwards and upwards...hopefully.

Cheers,

Matt
 
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Thu Jun 19, 2014, 07:18 AM
(#7)
braveslice's Avatar
Since: Feb 2013
Posts: 568
I don’t know, villain is limper (a person who when bets, you should usually yield – so easy to play against), and there is lots of value on the board OTT. Also, when this player type bets the river, I think you are at most EV neutral if you call. Only those times when laggy player is making unconventional play.

Villain´s float range includes almost all over cards usually and now when turn gives a one to flush, he will call all hearts. What size you think a fish will call when he is holding A or K of hearts? Or top pair like JT,QT,KT? I don't claim shove is best here but imho if a good analyser whould do a analysis he might as well come to conclusion that against limper fish shove is most EV here Well, that is doubtfull, but you never know.

If you look TrustySam’s hands you see that not bet/floding with thin value against a limper lost him massive amount of money

Last edited by braveslice; Thu Jun 19, 2014 at 08:26 AM..
 
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Fri Jun 20, 2014, 11:36 AM
(#8)
TrustySam's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 8,291
BronzeStar
That's actually what I do now, is bet usually even if the turn brings a 3rd card of one suit - not totally sure why I changed it tho. My bet sizing's definitely gotten a lot more subtle and less easy to read, that might be one reason lol. But I also changed stakes, so ... guess I felt more comfortable just posting hands, rather than making mention of that.


There definitely do seem to be benefits to continuing to bet on the turn versus loose players though - that's a great list that you laid out braveslice


Maybe the stronger the hand, the more EV it might be to continue to bet on the turn at 2nl? Like maybe holding an overpair or a set, rather than just TP with a middling kicker and no additional draws, etc? And maybe sometimes checking behind might be okay too?
 

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