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bb/100 nl100.question

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bb/100 nl100.question - Thu Jul 03, 2014, 01:08 PM
(#1)
OmG_FiNLAnd's Avatar
Since: Apr 2014
Posts: 2
Hello everyone. how many BB/100 can keep a top reg at that level? (nl100 normal and zoom)
 
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Thu Jul 03, 2014, 01:20 PM
(#2)
Fadyen's Avatar
Since: Apr 2012
Posts: 1,917
*Moved to more appropriate forum* - Fadyen

Really anything positive can keep a player at that level, so the question I guess is what's decent? Kind of tough to answer for me as I don't play near that high but I'd imagine getting near 4 or 5 bb/100 would be considered crushing. But maybe I'm way off, hopefully someone who's a reg at those stakes can help.



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Thu Jul 03, 2014, 03:21 PM
(#3)
GarethC23's Avatar
Since: Nov 2011
Posts: 1,273
nobody knows, but its hard to make money at poker. most regs are breaking even or worse
 
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Thu Jul 03, 2014, 03:31 PM
(#4)
geoVARTA's Avatar
Since: Oct 2010
Posts: 1,306
Quote:
Originally Posted by GarethC23 View Post
nobody knows, but its hard to make money at poker. most regs are breaking even or worse
Very motivating Gareth, tyvm
 
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Thu Jul 03, 2014, 05:35 PM
(#5)
TrustySam's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 8,291
BronzeStar
Hey omg, welcome


Another poster found some winrates (estimates?) the other day and posted them here: http://www.pokerschoolonline.com/for...ker-Cash-Games

Quote:
Originally Posted by dirt eh View Post
Recently posted by BlackRain79... Just want to know what everyone's thoughts are!

Show Me The Money!

Top win rates possible for elite players who play 1-8 tables.

NL2: 30bb/100
NL5: 20bb/100
NL10: 15bb/100
NL25: 12bb/100
NL50: 10bb/100
NL100: 10bb/100

Top win rates possible for elite players who play 9-17 tables.

NL2: 20bb/100
NL5: 13bb/100
NL10: 10bb/100
NL25: 8bb/100
NL50: 7bb/100
NL100: 7bb/100

Top win rates possible for elite players who play 18+ tables.

NL2: 12bb/100
NL5: 8bb/100
NL10: 6bb/100
NL25: 5bb/100
NL50: 5bb/100
NL100: 5bb/100

The Let Down

These are the average win rates for 1-8 tables.

NL2: 10bb/100
NL5: 6bb/100
NL10: 4bb/100
NL25: 3bb/100
NL50: 2bb/100
NL100: 2bb/100

These are the average win rates for 9-17 tables.

NL2: 6bb/100
NL5: 4bb/100
NL10: 3bb/100
NL25: 2bb/100
NL50: 1bb/100
NL100: 1bb/100

These are the average win rates for 18+ tables.

NL2: 4bb/100
NL5: 2bb/100
NL10: 2bb/100
NL25: 1bb/100
NL50: 0.5bb/100
NL100: 0.5bb/100

Just looking at the data for 10nl, it looks like these might be the rates for regular tables, and maybe the zoom ones might be about half that (for 2-10nl, which is all I've played so far)


The rake's super high, and so is the caliber of play from regs in the zoom pool (and maybe even at the regular tables, although maybe less-so?), so like for me at 10nl, Pokerstars' commission is basically about 75%, leaving me with about 25%? Would imagine it must be even worse at higher stakes? And then the more we grind, the more of a chance we have to make back a small percentage of that rake I guess ...


Am hoping that maybe some of these amounts might wind up getting adjusted sooner rather than later - because there's times of the day where it doesn't appear possible to play certain stakes of zoom profitably? And I can't think of any sort of business model where a company maximizes profits by having people feel like it's not worth their time to use their services as much as they want to? Like if even regs don't want to play during peak hours EST, what chance is there that newer players would want to either? And without regs or casual players, who's left to make money from?


Guess I'm hoping Stars has been focused on short-term profitability in anticipation of a sale, but that the new owners might be more concerned with the long-term?


Hopefully!


tl;dr summary - 'profits' at the zoom come from VPP/FPP rewards, winrates are oftentimes hovering around breakeven for a lot of people
 
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Fri Jul 04, 2014, 10:38 AM
(#6)
GarethC23's Avatar
Since: Nov 2011
Posts: 1,273
those average win rates are just wrong. sorry to break it to people.
 
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Fri Jul 04, 2014, 10:49 AM
(#7)
pullin1988's Avatar
Since: Apr 2013
Posts: 717
Just curious, but how does anyone know what the average win rates actually are?

Most regs are breakeven or worse - that's all Sandtrap's fault.

Gareth, when you say most regs are breakeven or worse, where does the info come from? (although I don't doubt it)

Not gonna a lie, that has deflated me a little.

Gareth, got any average win rate stuff? oh right, you said nobody knows.

I am changing my name to Sandtrap Junior! lol

Cheers,

Matt

Last edited by pullin1988; Fri Jul 04, 2014 at 01:09 PM..
 
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Fri Jul 04, 2014, 01:04 PM
(#8)
TrustySam's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 8,291
BronzeStar
It seems like the average winrates for regular tables ought to be higher than those listed up above?


Based on what people have said anecdotally ... and also based on data that various people have posted around the internet. And then just from playing regular tables and then comparing the caliber of play to that at the zoom tables, it feels like maybe the average winrates at regular tables might be ... quite a bit higher?


Lately I've been wondering if maybe it might be interesting to give regular tables a try.


Guess it'd help to learn how to table select. And that'd be different, having the same player always on our button, and to our left, etc. And then there'd be the chance to develop reads. And then there'd be the question of how many tables to play, etc.

Although the volume probably won't be the same?


Just sort of thinking out loud I guess ...
 
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Sun Jul 06, 2014, 02:23 AM
(#9)
GarethC23's Avatar
Since: Nov 2011
Posts: 1,273
There is one regular who beats everyone for a large win rate across the board. They play every day... every pot in fact!

If you calculate how much that regular takes out, it is impossible for most regulars to be winning and it is impossible to achieve some of the win rates, long term, that people post around the web.

So every month there is a new thread asking exactly 'what is a good win rate at X'? Well it would seem like having a win rate is 'good' to me as opposed to having a loss rate. It is not a useful question in any case.
 
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Sun Jul 06, 2014, 09:21 AM
(#10)
pullin1988's Avatar
Since: Apr 2013
Posts: 717
Quote:
There is one regular who beats everyone for a large win rate across the board. They play every day... every pot in fact!

If you calculate how much that regular takes out, it is impossible for most regulars to be winning and it is impossible to achieve some of the win rates, long term, that people post around the web.

So every month there is a new thread asking exactly 'what is a good win rate at X'? Well it would seem like having a win rate is 'good' to me as opposed to having a loss rate. It is not a useful question in any case.
Really! Any tips on finding this reg on google? I take it you don't want to share his name?

Does he post strategy videos?

Cheers,

Pullin
 
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Sun Jul 06, 2014, 10:49 AM
(#11)
TrustySam's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 8,291
BronzeStar
PokerStars' winrate is 6bb/100 at 10nl over the several hundred thousand hands that I've got on them, so they appear to be crushing


Am still trying to process the implications of having the rake and bonus system being what it is, and how the bb/100 graph *should* be viewed in light of that.

Because like okay, over about 250k hands at 10nl Zoom, my bb/100 is 2bb/100, and Pokerstars' rake is about 6bb/100. And my vpp/fpp bonuses are something like 2bb/100?

Summary, for 10nl zoom over 250k hands:
Me: 2bb/100
PS: 6bb/100
vpp/fpp: 2bb/100


For some reason though, think I'd feel a lot better about my play if my graph were actually showing a win-rate of 4bb/100, and PS just took 4bb/100 rake and didn't bother with the bonus thing?

I wonder if maybe there's a tendency to put more emphasis on the bb/100 graph than it deserves, or to not think of vpp/fpp bonuses as 'earned', perhaps because they're called 'bonuses' or whatever?


So there's that angle - also, maybe if 'bonuses' were considered part of the win-rate, without so much emphasis being placed on the bb/100 figure ... like that could have implications on how much volume people choose to play? Like, maybe it might be more profitable for me to play break-even and try to reach gold star, rather than stick to 2 tables because I've been worried about my bb/100 rate?


Guess I'm just thinking out loud, trying to process everything
 
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Sun Jul 06, 2014, 11:02 AM
(#12)
pullin1988's Avatar
Since: Apr 2013
Posts: 717
Feel silly about my question. Cheers Trusy Sam
 
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Sun Jul 06, 2014, 01:18 PM
(#13)
Shodan388's Avatar
Since: Sep 2011
Posts: 75
2bb / 100 is a marginal winner at said stakes.

4 - 5bb / 100 is very solid.

8bb / 100 or more = crushing.
 
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Sun Jul 06, 2014, 01:48 PM
(#14)
TrustySam's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 8,291
BronzeStar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shodan388 View Post
2bb / 100 is a marginal winner at said stakes.

4 - 5bb / 100 is very solid.

8bb / 100 or more = crushing.

That has to be speculation on your part - because if people had better graphs of 10nl zoom for a quarter million hand sample, they'd be posting them


I think it's important to be basing the numbers on fact rather than hearsay, because there's a tendency of people in poker to only post the run-good, and not give the full picture.


Like 8bb/100 over a 250k hand sample at 10nl zoom sounds laughable ...
 
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Mon Jul 07, 2014, 09:45 AM
(#15)
mike2198's Avatar
Since: Jan 2013
Posts: 1,485
yourdoom crushed 2knl for 10bb/100, now that is ridiculous.
 
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Mon Jul 07, 2014, 11:53 AM
(#16)
Shodan388's Avatar
Since: Sep 2011
Posts: 75
Quote:
Originally Posted by TrustySam View Post
That has to be speculation on your part - because if people had better graphs of 10nl zoom for a quarter million hand sample, they'd be posting them


I think it's important to be basing the numbers on fact rather than hearsay, because there's a tendency of people in poker to only post the run-good, and not give the full picture.


Like 8bb/100 over a 250k hand sample at 10nl zoom sounds laughable ...
Yes, over such a large sample, I tend to agree. It was just meant as a guide.
 

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