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5NL 6-max Zoom - Pocket 9s dilema

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5NL 6-max Zoom - Pocket 9s dilema - Mon Jul 28, 2014, 09:32 PM
(#1)
Fadyen's Avatar
Since: Apr 2012
Posts: 1,917


Few spots here I'm agonising over my decisions. Pre I can't fold to the shorty but if I try to iso and get shoved on I hate life. Then on the flop maybe I shouldn't have bet out? Of course once he shoves I have to get it in I think. But would a different line have lead to a different result?

As always thanks for your opinions/criticisms



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Tue Jul 29, 2014, 12:20 AM
(#2)
ForrestFive's Avatar
Since: May 2011
Posts: 2,036
Hi Fadyen,

Can't say I ever have played 400bb deep and a 200bb yet to act. (need to check my non exact maths)


I'm with the shorty all-in call. The parody of a gentleman's game - do we check it down together or look to our own equity?

Open ender we lead out or check? I don't know what they will do so deep?


Ok maths approximate but we can take a note on the KK doing fist pumps on his over call (pot 3x all-in player) with no Ace on the flop. NIT we know how they got double stacked.

Last edited by ForrestFive; Tue Jul 29, 2014 at 12:30 AM.. Reason: trappy KK NIT
 
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Tue Jul 29, 2014, 04:24 AM
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PlasticPearl's Avatar
Since: Jun 2014
Posts: 1,422
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I'm not sure we do have to get it in. I think it's very unlikely Cranberry has something like A8 or K8 so I would rule out top pair. We have pocket 9s so it's unlikely he has that. That leaves either overpairs strong than ours, a set being played fast, or maybe someone getting aggressive with AK. I like leading out on the flop but once he shoves, I'm not sure we're good.


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Tue Jul 29, 2014, 04:48 AM
(#4)
Lovehouse888's Avatar
Since: Mar 2013
Posts: 10
Hi,

I would always call the short stacked all in if I was last in line. With another deep stack still left to act, I feel as 99 isn't good enough. Even after calling the shove, I would check the flop and probably call one barrel. If that barrel is an all in, I would fold, there's just too many hands that have you beat. On the other hand, there's a lot of turn cards that could really improve your hand, so peeling one off isn't a bad idea, but to me it just seems like to you overvalued your hand a bit. Please correct me if I'm wrong or missing the point here!
 
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Tue Jul 29, 2014, 07:05 AM
(#5)
ArtySmokesPS's Avatar
Since: Oct 2011
Posts: 7,363
This hand is a good example of why I hate playing deep, and always sit out once I have more than 150bb.

With a normal stack, I'd usually 4-bet jam pre (depends on reads on the shorty, but he's usually spazzing) to isolate and take my chances in a likely flip with some dead money as padding.
With these stacks and positions, I think I might just fold. Calling is unlikely to get you heads up, so you're suddenly playing a stack to pot ratio of barely 2:1 with a hand that will be middle pair more often than not, and that is rarely getting action from anything it beats.
The flop texture is kinda pukey. You have the smallest overpair and the top end of an OESD, so you definitely have some equity, but what worse hands can call a bet? Unless villain is bad enough to call the huge raise pre with something like A8s, you're only getting action from bigger overpairs (a major part of villain's range) and AKdd, as most unpaired hands (AQ etc) are snap-folding.
I'm really not sure about this, but I think a check-call or check-shove are the best options. I don't really like betting, because it allows villain to play perfectly. He dumps his air, and stacks off everything that beats or is flipping with you. I guess it's OK to get villain off his AK/AQ equity by betting, but you're getting pot-committed with a pretty weak pair. The nightmare situation is if villain (correctly) just calls the flop with QQ+. You will hate 90% of turn cards, and have barely more than a pot-sized shove remaining, and zero fold equity.

As played, the pot lays roughly 14:6 to call off, so you need 6/20 = 30% equity to break even. Against a strict value range of QQ+/AdKd, you have 40%, so it's a sigh-call.


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Tue Jul 29, 2014, 09:38 AM
(#6)
Fadyen's Avatar
Since: Apr 2012
Posts: 1,917
Thanks for the replies everyone. Seems you guys think it's a bit of a tricky spot too so I don't feel so bad about misplaying it. I should probably have mentioned I had no reads on the shorty but was assuming he was on the weaker side given his stack size etc. so his range is wide and I'm ahead of it hence why I want to call his shove. The villain who is IP is more of a reg who I have some hands on and he has a history of flatting AK/AQ vs 2 and 3-bets. I guess now we know he flats big pairs in the same way.

I still like flatting the shorty because I can't just fold assuming the other villain is at the top of his range. So with his range being mainly AK/Q or QQ+ when he calls pre how do I want to play it from there? There are a bunch of turn cards I don't like so if I bet out, as I did, I'm getting folds from the Ax and shoved on by QQ+ which I'm 40% against so I have the correct odds to get it in. So perhaps check/shoving is the way to go? Although I still never get called by worse I do at least sometimes fold out better and still have my 40% when the better does call.

Or at least I think that makes sense.



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Tue Jul 29, 2014, 01:45 PM
(#7)
mike2198's Avatar
Since: Jan 2013
Posts: 1,485
X/J cant be that bad if he will bet all his over pairs and AK, so he will be folding a ton and we got plenty of outs.

If he checks back most AK though and then you jam you just win alot less, i would rather have a read to x/j and i would x/c flop and go from there.

I might just fold pre knowing im going to have to put alot more money into the pot to win it readless and there will be alot of over cards on the flop most of the time, yet another spot that is very rare and always ends up with us losing money.
 
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Tue Jul 29, 2014, 01:52 PM
(#8)
bhoylegend's Avatar
Since: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,261
I think I am folding pre-flop in this spot as we dont close the action. If we did close the action I would be happy to play for the shorties stack.

I just think post flop will be incredibly difficult to play if the big stack comes along and while its never terrible getting it in with a OESD, its not great this deep.
 

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