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KK when bblind calls

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KK when bblind calls - Mon Dec 09, 2002, 01:42 AM
(#1)
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20 players left

blinds 1 k 2k

mid postion raise 6k with kk 60k stack
bb calls with ak 80 k stack


bb bets 10k on flop of Q 7 Q


in my mind im commiting to this pot when he bets 10 k if he had q i think he would check to induce the raiser to bet and then reraise. so when he bets im thinking underpair if AA he would already raised me.

????? i want his stack what is best chance of getting it, if i go all in here he can fold. ( i dont think that player wouldve but) so i just call river is a 6 no flush out there he bets pot of 32k i have 12 k left anda go all in he is gonna call no matter what in this case and river is a A he has ak I LOOSE.

my thinking was i wanted all his chips after i saw flop and he bet 10k im gambling i know but i like my odds if he has underpair he has 2 outs if he has ace he has 3 other than that i win everthing else and all his chips.

i know most will go all in on flop, what makes my rational wrong, or rite any help appreciated
 
Old
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Mon Dec 09, 2002, 09:12 AM
(#2)
Deleted user
Freddie, it's a little hard to follow. I assume the turn is a 6 and the river is an Ace?

I think you played it fine and he hit a 3 outer that he probably thought was a 6 outer. You got all of the money in when you were a favorite. Most of it when you were a BIG favorite.

If he had a queen he probably would have checked the flop. So the only thing you're worried about is aces or pp7s and both of those seem pretty remote given the action.

Peace, Starrs LSOGC
 
Old
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Mon Dec 09, 2002, 09:17 AM
(#3)
Deleted user
If you play much NLHE online you will be faced with the preflop dilemma all the time: how much can I raise and get called by worse hands vs. how much will I lose if I don't bet enough to keep a myriad of chasers out?

Most of the time it matters more who's in there and unless you're keeping good mental (or written) notes on all the players there's not much you can do but guess.

I think your preflop raise was too small and your flop action too timid but it all depends on who the other player was.

If you were going to go all in, do it sooner than later so that you won't be questioning yourself this much. If he "would have called anyway" so be it.

Judging by the tone of your message I would hazard a guess that "greed got you" this time. In fact if he woulda called anyway, you want to get him to do so with 3 outs so get the chips out there where they can breed with the opponent's stack.
 
Old
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Mon Dec 09, 2002, 10:52 AM
(#4)
Deleted user
With those stacks, it is quite clear to raise full pot preflop :wink:
 
Old
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Mon Dec 09, 2002, 01:16 PM
(#5)
Deleted user
and raise all in on the flop. I'm with geezer, you got too greedy here. You wanted all of his chips, and instead he got all of yours. I would have raised all in on the flop (because he doesn't have a queen - any good player would check with a queen on this flop after calling your flop raise to let you bet). If he calls you with AK and spikes his three outer so be it - but instead you let him be the aggressor, it's not hard for him to call just 10K more after you reraised him all in on the turn.

There's an argument to be made for playing it the way you did, but I would tend to think that playing it aggressive on the flop is correct more often than it is not.

Hazy
 
Old
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Mon Dec 09, 2002, 01:22 PM
(#6)
Deleted user
Quote:
any good player would check with a queen on this flop after calling your flop raise to let you bet).
Remind me to bet into you next time we are in this situation
 
Old
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Mon Dec 09, 2002, 01:45 PM
(#7)
Deleted user
I'd fall for it.

 
Old
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Re: KK when bblind calls - Mon Dec 09, 2002, 03:30 PM
(#8)
Deleted user
Quote:
Originally Posted by freddieboy
in my mind im commiting to this pot when he bets 10 k if he had q i think he would check to induce the raiser to bet and then reraise. so when he bets im thinking underpair if AA he would already raised me.
M-A-Y-B-E. How do you know he wasn't betting T10k to either: (1) get you to lay down a hand like a smaller pair that missed the flop entirely but still had a chance to get lucky and fill up, or (2) get you to make a big raise so he could take all of your chips?

Although your analysis is the likely rationale, it is certainly not the only way he could have played his hand. After all, if he had a queen and played back at you for all your chips, what would you have done in that situation? Would you have released K-K, or made what would have to be a crying call in that situation?
 
Old
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Wed Dec 18, 2002, 05:20 AM
(#9)
Deleted user
Deleted.
 
Old
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Wed Dec 18, 2002, 08:44 AM
(#10)
Deleted user
I agree with aaron.

However.....

If you were to raise all-in at the flop, most players here now seem to call with the AK, trying to hit his 6 outer (3 in this case), and probably would have called anyway (like i said, a lot og players seem to be doing this a lot)
 
Old
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Wed Dec 18, 2002, 09:45 AM
(#11)
Deleted user
:lol:

I think many have read the about "fancy play syndrom." This concept goes to far in PSO, but you did acknowledge you knew you were gambling (been there done that) with this many chips in play, 60K vs 80K.

The slow-play is also carried to far in many situations. "remember slow play with less that almost un-beatable hand is a recipe for disaster." You've just made it to the last twenty and there is much poker to be played before you (a) make the money and (b) have a reasonable chance to win the tournament. With 6K+6K+ 3K + 10K flop bet = 25K, this would have increased your stack to 79K (25/54 = 46%). 79K / 2K = 39.5 BB will be a contender for first place (not on shallow money any longer).

One pair is after all just one pair. KK is the second pair, granted. Rarely is one pair a hand big enough to give the other player unlimited free or cheap cards. If it's that big, why not check and call. Then go all-n on the river. You can't win the tournament at 20th or 19th place, but you can "IGHN."

You pays your money and you takes your choice :!: :!: :!:
 
Old
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Wed Dec 18, 2002, 11:25 AM
(#12)
Deleted user
Freddie, you have a good read on other players.


So try to take this pot down on the flop. If he's got a queen, so be it.

If he calls, he calls, and sucks out on you, then you got your chips in on an 7.5/8 to 1 favorite.


Don't give him a chance to catch you, without making him pay.



Randy
 
Old
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Wed Dec 18, 2002, 12:07 PM
(#13)
Deleted user
If I am reading this correct, blinds are 1 and 2k, and the players involved have 60k and 80k. These are both what I would consider "big stacks" in this situation. Not knowing what the other players had in chips, I'm not going to make a "cover all" statement. But, 1st of all, I'm going to try and avoid any and all confrontations with other "big stacks" at my table, at this point. I'm also going to try and "protect" my stack until I get to the final table. I am usually always in a "protect a big stack, build a small stack" mode, until I do hit the final table (IF i hit the final table! lol).
I would've made a bigger raise here, although not much bigger, probaly 4x or 5x the BB. This will give me the chance to lay the KK down, if someone comes over the top, and I put them on AA. If I was committed to getting all in here (which I wouldn't have been), I would've raised with 1/2 my stack. When the other player called the raise, that would've sent up an immediate caution flag in my mind. Does he have AA, AK, or a smaller PP?? Knowing the player is the most important thing to consider here, in my opinion.
Once the 2 Q's hit the flop, unless I have a very good read on my opponent, and am very sure he doesn't hold a Q, I'm gone when he bets here. I still have a fairly good stack left, and plenty of options to get more chips down the road. A good player will often check here, that is true. But a VERY good player will know that YOU know that, and possibly bet with the intention of playing on that.
Pre flop, I'm a big favorite in an unopened pot with KK in mid position. But, after the flop, with those ladies on the board, I'm not going to take a chance, here.
 
Old
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Wed Dec 18, 2002, 01:16 PM
(#14)
Deleted user
Deleted.
 
Old
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Wed Dec 18, 2002, 03:29 PM
(#15)
Deleted user
Quote:
I would've made a bigger raise here, although not much bigger, probaly 4x or 5x the BB. This will give me the chance to lay the KK down, if someone comes over the top, and I put them on AA.
Out of interest, how can the above even be a thought in anybodies head? Just how can you put someone on only having AA, on the internet, when you open raise and someone moves in behind you, especially when it would be a signifivcant % for them to call the raise?

Also out of interest, do you think folding KK preflop is what seperates the very best players from everyone else. Because Phil Hellmuth does so, right?
 
Old
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Wed Dec 18, 2002, 04:07 PM
(#16)
Deleted user
Just because YOU don't think so, noodles, there are players here at PSO and other internet sites who will only reraise with AA. That is how I might have that thought going through my head. And I doubt if I'm going out on a limb here, by saying I'm sure others have had this thought maybe once or twice in similar situations.
And, NO, noodles, I do not think folding KK preflop is what separates the very best players from everyone else, although I do believe it takes a good player to know when to do it, and also to have the ability to be able to do it.
Noodles, if you have a problem with me, then let's get it out! If you don't agree with my playing style, or my thinking, no biggie. Just don't apply anything I say, and go on!! If it is your goal to rip through everything I say with your "education" and your "slide rule" approach to poker, you're fighting a losing battle, 'cause I really don't care what you think, anymore! If you're such a freakin' genius when it comes to this game, what the heck are you doing wasting your time on a "clueless arse" like me, anyhow? Get out there and apply that vast knowledge!!
You've made your opinion of me clear in past posts, and I'm sure many here agree with you. Once again, noodles, I DON'T CARE!! Use that degree, which you love to point out having, on someone who does!
 
Old
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Wed Dec 18, 2002, 04:15 PM
(#17)
Deleted user
Quote:
Originally Posted by thehazyone
Bob,

IMO if you fold everytime you have KK because two queen's flop and someone bet's who called your preflop raise then you are playing WAY too tight. I fire back at his bet, big, maybe not all in, but enough to see if he really has the queen. I'm certainly not folding to a little tiny 10K feeler bet.

Hazy
Exactly - which is why (maybe? 8O ) earlier talk of "he can't have a Q, wudda checked..." isn't quite right.
 
Old
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Wed Dec 18, 2002, 04:34 PM
(#18)
Deleted user
I do agree with you, hazy, that this may be "too tight". It all goes back to "knowing the player". "Is this the type of player to check if he has the set of Q's, or will he/she come out firing?" "Is the small bet of 10k out there just so I will call it, or try a reraise and trap me?", "Would this player just call with AA?", these are all questions I would hope to have answered by this point in a tournament. I've never been one to believe in putting out "feeler bets". I've always believed that you should get enough "reads" on your opponents to have a good idea where you are at with them. But, I also know this isn't always the case. And in this case, since I have absolutely NO info on this other player (could possibly have anything, as far as I know), I'm going to shut down and fold my KK when BB bets the flop.
My reasoning here is this. My main goal is getting to the Final Table. I can't win unless I make it there. I may change gears and get real loose when I get there, I may not. Depends on the opposition and my stack size. My thinking on this hand is, I may very well have the best hand, but I may not. If I lose this hand, with my chips all in, do I make it to the final table? I'm not going to chance it with a "coin toss" bet, plain and simple. Maybe "too tight" for most, but this what I would consider in this situation.
 
Old
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Wed Dec 18, 2002, 05:08 PM
(#19)
Deleted user
Quote:
Originally Posted by Indy_Bob
Just because YOU don't think so, noodles, there are players here at PSO and other internet sites who will only reraise with AA. That is how I might have that thought going through my head. And I doubt if I'm going out on a limb here, by saying I'm sure others have had this thought maybe once or twice in similar situations.
And, NO, noodles, I do not think folding KK preflop is what separates the very best players from everyone else, although I do believe it takes a good player to know when to do it, and also to have the ability to be able to do it.
For f**k sake man, why do you see personal criticism in everything I say? They were simple questions asked out of interest. I thought that was pointed out by the words I used.


Quote:
Noodles, if you have a problem with me, then let's get it out!
Actually, it seems the other way round.

Quote:
If you don't agree with my playing style, or my thinking, no biggie. Just don't apply anything I say, and go on!! If it is your goal to rip through everything I say with your "education" and your "slide rule" approach to poker
Slide rule approach lol? You have no clue, seriously.

Quote:
, you're fighting a losing battle, 'cause I really don't care what you think, anymore! If you're such a freakin' genius when it comes to this game, what the heck are you doing wasting your time on a "clueless arse" like me, anyhow?
Who said I am a genius? Do you have an inferiority complex or something? Is it this filter through which you view my posts that leads you to take everything I say as a personal insult?

I agree you are a clueless arse. I figured, with this being a school, that I would try to help you stop being one.

I have never, ever claimed to be a genius. Though I guess it is all relative to the person I am being compared. All I have always ever said on this forum is that I was just 1 step above a beginner. I am probably not even on that level at this moment.

Quote:
Use that degree, which you love to point out having, on someone who does!
I have a degree? I love to point it out? lol. You have problems man.
 
Old
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Wed Dec 18, 2002, 05:11 PM
(#20)
Deleted user
Quote:
Originally Posted by rosita
Quote:
Originally Posted by thehazyone
Bob,

IMO if you fold everytime you have KK because two queen's flop and someone bet's who called your preflop raise then you are playing WAY too tight. I fire back at his bet, big, maybe not all in, but enough to see if he really has the queen. I'm certainly not folding to a little tiny 10K feeler bet.

Hazy
Exactly - which is why (maybe? 8O ) earlier talk of "he can't have a Q, wudda checked..." isn't quite right.
Well, in general a decent player would check. Whether that is the case here depends on the opponent and teh psychology of the moment, but that is getting into specifics rather than general advice.
 

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