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Is this a good example to limp under the gun? (UTG)

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Is this a good example to limp under the gun? (UTG) - Fri Aug 01, 2014, 09:55 AM
(#1)
adikumar2010's Avatar
Since: Mar 2011
Posts: 1,094
This is ACOP Mega Giveaway $3.30 Stage 1 Satellite to $22 Stage 2 ACOP Satellite. It has 10mins blind level.

I will give you an example where we can limp UTG I am not sure if it's the best play or not.

Situation is awkward I have 17BB.

I have 2 options, which any pro would recommend i.e. shove or fold.
  1. I can't open shove as there are no antes and when called I will be flipping or crushed.
  2. Fold will be loss of chips and hand is not too poor to just open fold.
Now I thought maybe I can limp and shove on any raise or call any shove. If nobody raises or shoves preflop, then I can mostly take it down on flop. So by limping I am set mining also and I can escape on a wet board, without putting all the chips at risk.

I still think most of you will recommend shoving but pre-antes with more then 15BB I don't like shoving with 77.

Here is a list of hands with which I will shove and with which I will limp, in same kind of stack situation

Open Shove: AQ+, AJs+, 99-QQ
Limp: 55-88, AJo, KQs & AA KK (for trap)
Fold: Remaining all hands

* I am limping those hands and not planning to fold to single pre-flop shove. Only if two maniacs move all-in over my limp I will fold those limps hands.



STATS :
 
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Fri Aug 01, 2014, 01:27 PM
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JWK24's Avatar
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Hi Adikumar2010!

Open-limping is one of, if not the most exploitable plays in NLHE and something that I do NOT recommend. The only time you will ever see me open-limp is a mis-click! There is definitely a reason for the phrase ‘Punish the Limper’.

With 77 here, I’m also not open-shoving, as my stack is too deep. I have a re-steal stack, not an open-shove stack. Due to this, I have two choices… either to make a standard opening raise or to fold and depending on the opps at the table, either can be a viable play.

There are also other problems with the thought process with this hand. First, if you’re willing to limp, and then call a shove… shove first.
Also, stating that you want to have an open-limping range is a HUGE bet tell. It’s another case of fancy play syndrome that will backfire and trap yourself more than you will trap an opponent… a.k.a. you will be making –EV plays that will lose YOU chips over time.
Bet tells are one of the worst things that you can do when playing, as any observant opponent will be looking for them and as soon as you have to showdown a hand, they will know exactly what your range is for a raise or limp and can then very, very easily exploit you.

Here’s an example of what an observant opp will do when someone is known to open-limp small pairs (I’m the hero in this hand in a homegame that I play against a player that I’ve been telling to stop open-limping). The opp open-limps, which I know is most likely a small pair or ace/rag. I’m in position and automatically make a standard raise with ATC (yes, any 2 cards, I don’t care what they are). The opp now has 2 choices. To call the raise and leak off even more chips to me every time they don’t flop a set, or fold and leak off a BB to me. If they call, the flop WILL have at least one, if not 2 overs and guess what, I’m betting EVERY flop whether I hit it or not and if the opp doesn’t have a set… they can’t call, even if they have the best hand. As you can see from this example, open-limping is a total spew of chips.

Players that want to slowplay and trap are also going to get beat by observant opps on a much more regular basis. I had someone do that to me with aces yesterday and due to their open-limp, I got in on the button with 56s into a family pot. Needless to say, when the flop was 789, the opp that shoved their aces was almost drawing dead and headed straight to tiltsville! All they had to do was to standard raise them and they would have won a 2-3 way pot against the worse opps, not lose a big pot to me… that was smart enough to exploit them due to their limp.

The better way to play this is to make a standard opening raise to 250 or 300 (whichever is your standard) with your entire range that you want to play and then to be ready to call a 3-bet shove. This way the opps are kept guessing as to whether you have a strong or marginal hand. When you limp some and raise some, the opp will know exactly what type of hand you’re playing and then be able to play optimally against it… costing you a large number of chips, most likely your entire stack!

Hope this helps and good luck at the tables.

John (JWK24)

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Fri Aug 01, 2014, 02:00 PM
(#3)
adikumar2010's Avatar
Since: Mar 2011
Posts: 1,094
I should open shove that's the best idea. I agree with you. But if I open shove as you said opponents will play perfectly against me whereas if I limp someone will get enticed to shove with 22-66 KQs Ax over my limp which they would generally fold when facing a shove.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JWK24 View Post
Here’s an example of what an observant opp will do when someone is known to open-limp small pairs (I’m the hero in this hand in a homegame that I play against a player that I’ve been telling to stop open-limping). The opp open-limps, which I know is most likely a small pair or ace/rag. I’m in position and automatically make a standard raise with ATC (yes, any 2 cards, I don’t care what they are). The opp now has 2 choices. To call the raise and leak off even more chips to me every time they don’t flop a set, or fold and leak off a BB to me. If they call, the flop WILL have at least one, if not 2 overs and guess what, I’m betting EVERY flop whether I hit it or not and if the opp doesn’t have a set… they can’t call, even if they have the best hand. As you can see from this example, open-limping is a total spew of chips.

Players that want to slowplay and trap are also going to get beat by observant opps on a much more regular basis. I had someone do that to me with aces yesterday and due to their open-limp, I got in on the button with 56s into a family pot. Needless to say, when the flop was 789, the opp that shoved their aces was almost drawing dead and headed straight to tiltsville! All they had to do was to standard raise them and they would have won a 2-3 way pot against the worse opps, not lose a big pot to me… that was smart enough to exploit them due to their limp.
Sir JWK,
In all your examples I can say that the stack sizes are not like this in any of your situation. I don't limp ever but this is the one time I limped after 1 year. Coz I don't want to play bookish poker all the time. It might sound like a fancy play syndrome. But I am not doing this same stuff each and every time. This is situation, stack, opponent specific scenario which made me think other ways to play one hand. Plus I was cursing people who limp AA but in my last 4 sessions I limped 60% times AA KK and what I see was some reg on the table constantly iso raising me (it could be you with ATC ). So what I started doing was sometimes I slowplay AA preflop and on the flop check-raise him everytime (he was a supernova). He folded to me 2 times but third time he 3-bet shoved over my check-raise with 2nd pair.

Whereas if the iso raiser had been a rec I was 3-betting them preflop as I know they don't like folding. On the flop they consider me **deleted inappropriate language JWK24**. So I was wrong that limping AA is bad idea ever, it's super profitable esp. when there is someone who likes to ISO raise.

So what happened was regs thought I am a big fish limping hands and they like to iso raise and own me. But they leaked off more chips to me in trying to do that.

If I limped 77 this time that doesn't mean I will limp 77 each and every time, I just vary my game according to table, stack size, players, position, etc. If I limp 77's now maybe next time I will open shove 77s if all the stacks are deeper on my table. I don't think it comes under fancy play syndrome esp. when you have a plan of what you are going to do on later streets.

Also I was reading Dusty's article that how we can sometimes limp and still play good poker.
http://www.cardplayer.com/poker-news...p-open-limping

Last edited by JWK24; Fri Aug 01, 2014 at 02:48 PM..
 
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Fri Aug 01, 2014, 02:55 PM
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JWK24's Avatar
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I did NOT say to open shove... I said to make a standard open and then plan to get it in if an opp 3-bets. It's too many chips to open shove and due to that, all that open shoving will accomplish is to value-own ourselves... fold out everything worse and get called by better.

All that the fancy play syndrome hands will do.. is to lose US chips, not the opponents. If you continue to make these types of plays, then you'll need to be ready to lose an inordinate number of times because you will lose a higher % of these hands than a player should. Those are very exploitable plays that will cost a player value and leak chips off, which is not how to win tournaments.

John (JWK24)


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Fri Aug 01, 2014, 03:05 PM
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adikumar2010's Avatar
Since: Mar 2011
Posts: 1,094
Ok sorry I understand. This might not work in tournaments. But I dont want to 2.5x with that 17BB baby stack.
 
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Fri Aug 01, 2014, 03:50 PM
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TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adikumar2010 View Post
Also I was reading Dusty's article that how we can sometimes limp and still play good poker.
http://www.cardplayer.com/poker-news...p-open-limping
Dusty's article (which is good) does not apply to your situation here. None of the criteria apply. And he's talking about deep stacks, not <20bb.


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Fri Aug 01, 2014, 04:33 PM
(#7)
adikumar2010's Avatar
Since: Mar 2011
Posts: 1,094
Yes I understand its for cash game. But I was thinking when can we limp is MTT. JWK once told me to overlimp in similar scenario when I had AJs in CO and someone from EP limped who had a big stack. So iso-raising was bad idea as I had 18BB and C-bet will make me ultra short assuming he is never folding to raise and it was too big of a shove.

Anyways I thought maybe this is something different I can try with small stack with decent hands from EP, I guess no one digs that idea as it's just an experiment which can be +EV or -EV depends on the variables (player's tendency, stack size, etc)

I just thought I will share here and hear what you have to say about it. BTW I limped after a long while in MTT. Coz I remember when I see someone open limping and I have 8-15BB stack I am enticed to shove wider then normal on him as I think he is limping garbage and also I think I have fold equity on his limpy kind of hand ranges like 57s, JTo, 89s, etc.

PS: No need to reply, don't want to stretch the conversation. I posted this hand to hear your thoughts on limping strategy in these kinds of scenarios. As normally I was min-raising or shoving this from last 2-3 year. Min-raising I don't like just coz I will pick many callers and flop will be mostly bad for me.
 
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Fri Aug 01, 2014, 09:04 PM
(#8)
marvinsytan's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 6,453
17bb utg not gonna limp w 7's not gonna open shove w 7's

if you limp your basically set mining and fold to every action on the flop so you lost your 1bb

long term it's not profitable

you can make a standard raise 2.5x and hopefully the blinds will call you and you cbet and take down the pot which is way better play than limping
 
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Sun Aug 03, 2014, 06:32 PM
(#9)
spand42's Avatar
Since: Sep 2010
Posts: 1,496
I don't like limping here for the many reasons mentioned already.

At this depth of money I'd min open, or if I feel the table is really call-happy, I'm more than happy just mucking this from early position.
 
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Sun Aug 03, 2014, 08:20 PM
(#10)
Profess Awe's Avatar
Since: Apr 2011
Posts: 1,579
We're missing info like how many tickets, how many left, when do the blinds go up which could well play a part. I like the Spand suggestion, I also don't feel like we have to open with the plan to call off versus any one who shoves.

I do agree its an awkward spot though. Interestingly I limped UTG in a satellite on Saturday night, but the situation was rather different - I had KK we were near bubble, I only wanted action from shorties. The replies above could appear to write off limping in MTTs, it has its place, you will see myself and others doing it when the situation is right. Its typically when effective bb is low, we have more chips, villains are straightforward. My point here is that limping isn't a crime when done under the right conditions.
 
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Sun Aug 03, 2014, 08:50 PM
(#11)
adikumar2010's Avatar
Since: Mar 2011
Posts: 1,094
It's a far way to the tickets , early in the tournament 50/100 is just 4th level and there is still some time for the next blind level which will be 75/150 (as it has 10min blind levels)

It's just a safe passive way, unless you try something new you will take it as wrong for granted. Following the standard play is most profitable but sometimes altering and doing something else can be profitable in just that one situation.

+ point is that my limp will be assumed as a weak play by some reg and he will be jumping to shove his 22-66 or QK KTs etc. As he thinks I am going to fold my hand and if not fold then his hand is strong enough against my limping range. But I think 77's will do supergood against a preflop shove as they are enticed to shove lighter as they will be factoring some fold equity which in actual is nil

- point is that 2-3 player can go bezerk and shove reshove and I will later have to see them flipping with 22-66 or some over cards. As I will defintely be folding to more then 1 shove.

In real life example: If you want to goto a particular place for dinner, you will ask few people and they all will say its a new restauarant and we never heard of it, so you automatically assumes that it will serve tastless/bad food just coz people said that they don't like it or never tried it. You will create an image that if none of the 10 friends I asked has been there, then it must be crappy place.

PS: If everybody hates the idea of limping and its 100% incorrect then I am better of just open shoving this hand in a turbo game or open-fold as spand said in a regular blind structure game.
Coz my min raise is not going to accomplish anything in the micro stakes, I will 99% pick up 1-2 callers minimum and flop will be bad. I c-bet will be left with 11BB after they call my C-bet. Then turn check-check, river they bet I fold. Total Loss in the process 40% of the stack.

If I am on a table with good player and its a high buyin tournament, my preflop raise has 60% chance of taking this hand down prefop.
 
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Thu Aug 07, 2014, 01:15 AM
(#12)
pokerstar671's Avatar
Since: Aug 2010
Posts: 1,206
just fold preflop i think is better if u want someone to shove for isolation maybe u can min raise and call but i think alot of the players will just flat you and ur stuck in a bad spot


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Thu Aug 07, 2014, 04:18 PM
(#13)
Profess Awe's Avatar
Since: Apr 2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adikumar2010 View Post
In real life example: If you want to goto a particular place for dinner, you will ask few people and they all will say its a new restauarant and we never heard of it, so you automatically assumes that it will serve tastless/bad food just coz people said that they don't like it or never tried it. You will create an image that if none of the 10 friends I asked has been there, then it must be crappy place.
I do love a good analogy, except this restaurant isn't new, I have heard of these restaurants, its just that I learnt you should only ever go there in very special circumstances and have not looked back. We know your very unlikely to get a winning meal at:
 
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Thu Aug 07, 2014, 04:39 PM
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TheLangolier's Avatar
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That seems like quite the monsters under the bed view of dining. If I ask some friends about a restaurant and none of them have tried it, I form no assumptions about the quality of the food or experience there as a result.


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Fri Aug 08, 2014, 07:29 PM
(#15)
KumarLuv's Avatar
Since: Jun 2014
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Profess Awe View Post
but the situation was rather different - I had KK
In the little time I have spent playing poker, it seems to me you need stronger hands to limp from EP, than you need to raise from there.
 
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Fri Aug 08, 2014, 07:29 PM
(#16)
KumarLuv's Avatar
Since: Jun 2014
Posts: 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by Profess Awe View Post
but the situation was rather different - I had KK
In the little time I have spent playing poker, it seems to me you need stronger hands to limp from EP, than you need to raise from there.
 
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Fri Aug 08, 2014, 08:15 PM
(#17)
Profess Awe's Avatar
Since: Apr 2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KumarLuv View Post
In the little time I have spent playing poker, it seems to me you need stronger hands to limp from EP, than you need to raise from there.
There is some merit to that idea - only because if you were to limp from EP and stand a chance of making it at least unexploitable you would need hands that can stand a raise and probably be able to reraise so AA, KK etc easily fall there. However, limping generally allows more hands in a range, so overall the hands limped from EP would look weaker than those opened for a raise.

So interesting on the latest episode of the mid stakes living podcast they discussed limping UTG with shorter stacks. The outcome of the discussion was essentially balance is key if you are going to try and adopt it, but the real problem is other players responses to limping vary so much, that it is hard to get the right balance. Where the example of AJo as a limp fold balanced with AA-QQ they discussed really failed was you can imagine some other players raising with ATs and KJs amongst others.

I cant believe I have spent so much time talking about limping recently.
 
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Sat Aug 09, 2014, 05:32 AM
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adikumar2010's Avatar
Since: Mar 2011
Posts: 1,094
I want to be a professional limper Awe
 

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