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25nl Full Ring - 56 suited holding a flush on the turn and got 4bet shoved.

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25nl Full Ring - 56 suited holding a flush on the turn and got 4bet shoved. - Sat Aug 02, 2014, 09:31 AM
(#1)
dog-en-saka's Avatar
Since: Jul 2014
Posts: 22
This is my first post so please comment if there's any mistake.

Villain plays 17/17/0 after 6 hands, so I know almost nothing about him.

My quesitons are:

1. Fold or call against this shove?
2. Is my 3bet OTT ok? Would it be better to just call or mini-raise?
3. I feel my preflop and flop call are ok, but please comment if there's any other viable, or better option.

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SB ($25)
BB ($8.56)
UTG ($25)
MP1 ($25.56)
MP2 ($28.98)
CO ($25)
Hero (Button) ($24.65)

Preflop: Hero is Button with 6c, 5c
UTG raises to $0.75, 3 folds, Hero calls $0.75, 1 fold, BB calls $0.50

Flop: ($2.35) 2h, Qc, 10c (3 players)
BB checks, UTG bets $1.45, Hero calls $1.45, 1 fold

Turn: ($5.25) 9c (2 players)
UTG bets $3.80, Hero raises to $10.10, UTG raises to $22.80 (All-In)
 
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Sat Aug 02, 2014, 09:46 AM
(#2)
dog-en-saka's Avatar
Since: Jul 2014
Posts: 22
An additional question. If I get called against my 3bet instead, how should I play my hand OTR?
I think I would check or fold against villain's shove if the river card is Q,T,9,2 or 4th club, and shove otherwise.

And about my 1st question, I feel fold is the choice.
 
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Sat Aug 02, 2014, 11:22 AM
(#3)
carlk73's Avatar
Since: Aug 2012
Posts: 82
Your goal pre-flop calling with a suited connector is to get his stack if you hit flush vs his likely overpair. Snap call!
 
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Sat Aug 02, 2014, 01:45 PM
(#4)
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,517
(Head Trainer)
Hi dog-en,

Welcome to the forum!

Preflop I would fold. I don't like calling here because we have no knowledge of the villain yet. How am I going to play this hand profitably? Will the villain blast off his stack with 1 pair when I hit my hand? Will he fold certain board textures allowing us to use our position to take some pots away? Will he play straight forwardly post flop allowing us to know how to play when we flop a pair? We have no idea yet. I would call if we had some of these reads or info, or if we had a big fish in the blinds that would tend to come along, but absent this info I think it's just a fold.

Flop call is good.

OTT I would call. You're not 3-betting btw, you're raising. He's put in the first bet, you raise (2nd bet), and his shove is the 3rd bet. It's a bit of guess work since we don't have any read, about what range of hands he will bet/3B all in on this turn (see preflop recommendation above), but in general I think we will see enough sets of Q's, T's, and big pairs+Ac hands in order to make stacking off here profitable for us.






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Sat Aug 02, 2014, 01:46 PM
(#5)
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,517
(Head Trainer)
Quote:
Originally Posted by dog-en-saka View Post
An additional question. If I get called against my 3bet instead, how should I play my hand OTR?
I think I would check or fold against villain's shove if the river card is Q,T,9,2 or 4th club, and shove otherwise.
Check down a club, probably bet a board pairing card if he checks. Fold if he open bets/shoves any of the bad cards imo.


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Sat Aug 02, 2014, 01:51 PM
(#6)
mike2198's Avatar
Since: Jan 2013
Posts: 1,485
Dave would you fold any drawing hand that is crushed by villains opening range seen as his an unknown?
 
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Sat Aug 02, 2014, 04:10 PM
(#7)
carlk73's Avatar
Since: Aug 2012
Posts: 82
What would be an ideal opponent to play this type of hand against? A nit who might stack off with his overpair if we hit a straight or flush? I guess the key to playing this type of hand profitably is to be able to get paid off a certain amount of time when we get the nuts to compensate for all the times we hit zilch or a weak pair and have to fold?
 
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Sat Aug 02, 2014, 05:33 PM
(#8)
dog-en-saka's Avatar
Since: Jul 2014
Posts: 22
Thanks for a reply everyone

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheLangolier View Post
You're not 3-betting btw, you're raising. He's put in the first bet, you raise (2nd bet), and his shove is the 3rd bet.
Oops. thanks for your correction

Originally I felt folding against this shove would be better because set and big pairs+Ac are more likely to call against my raise, not shove
But folding against such a hand is just silly... so calling might be better.

I'm a little surprised to hear folding on the prefrop is better, but I think I generally understand what Dave means.
I still have no clear answer to the following carlk73's question, though...

Quote:
Originally Posted by carlk73 View Post
What would be an ideal opponent to play this type of hand against?
 
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Sun Aug 03, 2014, 01:12 PM
(#9)
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,517
(Head Trainer)
Ironically I referenced this hand in yesterday's live training as this exact question came up about playing suited connectors in position vs. a raise.

First of all stacks have to be deep enough so there are implied odds of at least 20 or 25-1 imo. That's not enough though, because some opponents won't give it up when we make a hand. So having reads on our opponents is important.

So basically, when I get involved with this hand, I want to have a clear plan on how that is going to be profitable long term. If there's a raise and 3 callers, then the profitability is in speculating for a big hand in a multi-way pot. If it's just the raiser as is this case, then we need some reads to understand where our profit is coming from... this is the answer to carl's question. For example:

Spewy LAG- Plan is to go for stacks when we make a big hand.

Nit- Plan is to take away the pot when he slows down or on scary board textures. (Note: our plan should NOT be to make a hand and stack aces vs. this guy, because we don't make a hand often enough when he has exactly AA/KK, and nits loath playing a huge pot with 1 pair anyway so there's no guarantee we get stacks from him. When we make a hand and get him to pay us with AA, that's a nice bonus... but the bulk of our profit comes from winning small and medium pots from this guy when he's not willing to play a big one, whether or not we hit something)


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Mon Aug 04, 2014, 08:55 AM
(#10)
dog-en-saka's Avatar
Since: Jul 2014
Posts: 22
Thanks for thorough explanation. I think I got it.
I also feel I play hands like AK poorly, and perhaps the reason is the lack of the viewpoint "How am I going to play this hand profitably?" (namely, I re-raise with AK from BB on the prefrop, get called, miss the flop, and then? something like that.)

I try to keep it in mind

Last edited by dog-en-saka; Mon Aug 04, 2014 at 10:43 AM..
 

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