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25NL FR ZOOM: BTN with QQ, get called against 3bet, flop 234 - how to proceed?

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25NL FR ZOOM: BTN with QQ, get called against 3bet, flop 234 - how to proceed? - Tue Aug 12, 2014, 11:26 PM
(#1)
dog-en-saka's Avatar
Since: Jul 2014
Posts: 22
MP1 plays 6/3/2 after 121 hands.

The situation would be familiar for all players: 3bet with QQ+, get called, no overcard, cbet, get called... and then?
Recently I lost several stacks in a row having KK+ and rushing into a set, so maybe I played the following hand too weakly. Villain's call OTF seems reasonable since my cbet was not so large and he had extra 4 outs.
Any better play? Unfortunately, my HUD did not work at the time and I didn't know the villain was the true nit.

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PokerStars Zoom No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (9 handed) - PokerStars Converter Tool from http://poker-tools.flopturnriver.com/Hand-Converter.php

Hero (Button) ($49.56)
SB ($36.42)
BB ($20.71)
UTG ($8.63)
UTG+1 ($28.80)
MP1 ($34.78)
MP2 ($53.96)
MP3 ($41.48)
CO ($25.77)

Preflop: Hero is Button with Qs, Qc
1 fold, UTG+1 raises to $0.75, MP1 calls $0.75, 3 folds, Hero raises to $3.35, 3 folds, MP1 calls $2.60

Flop: ($7.80) 2c, 3s, 4h (2 players)
MP1 checks, Hero bets $3.75, MP1 calls $3.75

Turn: ($15.30) 2d (2 players)
MP1 checks, Hero checks

River: ($15.30) 5s (2 players)
MP1 checks, Hero checks

Total pot: $15.30 | Rake: $0.69

Results:
Hero didn't show Qs, Qc (two pair, Queens and twos).
MP1 had As, Ks (straight, five high).
Outcome: MP1 won $14.61
 
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Wed Aug 13, 2014, 03:56 AM
(#2)
shoim's Avatar
Since: Jun 2013
Posts: 180
Hey,

From my point of view (been there in similar situations).
Pre-Flop 3b is a bit too much(maybe 2.80 would be better).
Flop, if opp called the 3b pre he is representing a strong hand that he is not going to fold on that rainbow flop, although connected. Sets at this time in his range are slim chances, in order to consider it you should have some reason to believe he is calling light a 3b (with small pairs, connectors etc) but an A here is to be taken into account in his range so any 5 is a red flag on future streets
Turn, laking a 5 and his check should give you confidence for a new bet (sets would value bet here 100%) and then tax a potential draw (that A he might hold).

River is a snap fold for me

My 2 cents on this hand,

Regards
 
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Wed Aug 13, 2014, 06:46 AM
(#3)
dog-en-saka's Avatar
Since: Jul 2014
Posts: 22
Hi shoim, thanks for your comment

Quote:
Originally Posted by shoim View Post
Pre-Flop 3b is a bit too much(maybe 2.80 would be better).
I innocently pushed the "pot bet" button here
I suppose you mean that smaller 3b enables us to control pot size, and makes it easier to bet on future street. Is that right?

In my experience, sets tend to check-raise or check-call OTT more often. Actually 5 OTR is not a threat for him anymore, so slowplay seems more profitable for him...? But anyway, I also think we could bet OTT.
 
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Wed Aug 13, 2014, 09:42 AM
(#4)
shoim's Avatar
Since: Jun 2013
Posts: 180
What I meant about the 3b was related to 'standard' sizing, I might be wrong (I don't play 25NL) but it seems a bit high and gives away information about strength of your holding. Depending on reads, a smaller 3b - let's say even as low as 2.50 or even 2.25 keeps fish in the pot whereas your big sizing isolates you with a potential more threating range. Without being specific about this result, it actually shows that whatever UTG+1 had he folded but the AK stood his ground.
I am by no means an expert but the 2 things caught my attention : pre-flop 3b size and turn action as a consequence.

PS: Pot control is not my concern pre-flop with such a strong holding, I am more concerned of not giving away any kind of information and trying to extract max value, God only knows when the laddies come to visit again
 
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Wed Aug 13, 2014, 11:56 AM
(#5)
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,510
(Head Trainer)
Hi dog,

Re 3B sizing, I think it's ok in this spot. It is a bit large, but not really egregious considering we are a bit deeper stacked with both villains. I would generally size more like $2.75-$2.85 here.

Turn is a mandatory bet imo. I would expect the callers range to be heavy in mid-range pocket pairs, 55-TT, and big aces that peeled once. I expect us to get value from the pockets, and fold out the big aces mostly. But either way, there's too much value to be had from worse hands to not bet here.

River check down is fine, this is a river card that when it didn't beat us, will be hard for the villain to call. Especially after checking the turn, which makes our hand look like AK so now their pockets are worried about us having a wheel.


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Wed Aug 13, 2014, 05:15 PM
(#6)
shoim's Avatar
Since: Jun 2013
Posts: 180
@Dave, Hi o/

Some literature suggests keeping the pot open for both opps, yet not miss a 3 bet, as we have positional advantage, and expect value from bluff cbets in case no overcards hit, or any kind of scary board for QQs that might drop (monochrome boards are first to mind, one color not of any of our ladies). I am saying this but usually proceed as Dog had, but heavily depending on reads, if any. Would you not agree with the first part ?

Ty.
 
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Wed Aug 13, 2014, 11:54 PM
(#7)
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,510
(Head Trainer)
Quote:
Originally Posted by shoim View Post
@Dave, Hi o/

Some literature suggests keeping the pot open for both opps, yet not miss a 3 bet, as we have positional advantage, and expect value from bluff cbets in case no overcards hit, or any kind of scary board for QQs that might drop (monochrome boards are first to mind, one color not of any of our ladies). I am saying this but usually proceed as Dog had, but heavily depending on reads, if any. Would you not agree with the first part ?

Ty.
Not exactly sure what you're asking... I would sometimes flat QQ, sometimes 3-bet it. This will be largely dependent on the villain(s), how wide they open and how wide or tight they continue vs. 3b's. Here in this hand I think 3-betting is fine... we aren't given any read on the original raiser, but the flat caller in MP has been a huge nit over 121 hands so his initial call is probably heavy in the 88-JJ/AQ-AK range, most of which will call our 3b and all of which we're ahead of. So I don't mind it absent reads on the opener.


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Thu Aug 14, 2014, 03:47 AM
(#8)
dog-en-saka's Avatar
Since: Jul 2014
Posts: 22
Thanks all,

I suppose the literature shoim mentioned aims a situation like this:

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Suppose UTG+1 has a middle pocket pair.
We make a small 3bet (about 2.5) and UTG+1, MP1 calls.
Flop is 432 rainbow.
UTG+1 bets, MP1 calls, we raise, 2 folds.

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I don't have much confidence to play like this since perhaps I can't get away from my hand if someone has a set or A5, 56... a pot becomes too large to make the right decision for me. Actually, recent my biggest concern is that "How should I play QQ+ in order to minimize my loss when a villain has a two pair+ (especially a set)?".

By the way, Dave, in what kind of situation do you flat QQ? Sometimes I also flat, but without a clear logic to do so, just based on my feeling.
Thanks for your evaluation to my other thread too.
 
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Thu Aug 14, 2014, 08:01 AM
(#9)
dog-en-saka's Avatar
Since: Jul 2014
Posts: 22
p.s. I had only 2 hands of data about UTG+1.
 
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Thu Aug 14, 2014, 08:47 AM
(#10)
shoim's Avatar
Since: Jun 2013
Posts: 180
For me I am trying to raise against the weak passive/recreational players that will pay my raise with a worst range and flat versus a more lagish aggro reg (from position) counting on his aggression to win me money, but I still need to experiment and check results over time, as it seems risky frisky
 

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