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Hold’em Manager and PokerTracker Merge

View Poll Results: Is this merger a good idea?
Yes, I'm looking forward to more great products. 5 62.50%
No, I'm happy with what I've got and I don't want any changes. 3 37.50%
Don't care, I don't use HUD's and never will. 0 0%
Voters: 8. You may not vote on this poll

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Hold’em Manager and PokerTracker Merge - Thu Aug 21, 2014, 09:42 AM
(#1)
royalraise85's Avatar
Since: Jul 2011
Posts: 26,024
(Community Coordinator)
According to this news release on the official Holdem Manager website it seems that that PokerTracker and Hold’em Manager have merged.


It will be interesting to see how this affects future products.

Is it a good move?

Raiser
 
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Thu Aug 21, 2014, 12:01 PM
(#2)
bhoylegend's Avatar
Since: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,261
It depends.

There's not really enough information to go on yet. On the face of it, I don't think HEM users have too much to worry about, we've been used to paying for add-ons to the main product. If the HEM trading model is retained I would expect that auto notes etc will become a separate product for Pokertrackers new customers.

As ever, while improved customer service may happen, I'd expect it will not in reality. This will just reduce back office costs (ie. people will lose their jobs) and boost profit margins. There are probably less grinders around too which will influence this move. In the future will there be room for two products?
 
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Thu Aug 21, 2014, 12:37 PM
(#3)
Fadyen's Avatar
Since: Apr 2012
Posts: 1,917
I personally think it won't really affect anything for the customers, at least not at the moment. Good for the companies as it may allow them to run more effectively and they don't have to worry about competition so much as one products profits go in the same pockets as the other products. And I don't think PokerTracker users will have to pay for add-ons either as that means those that already have will be paying less then new customers for the same service, makes no sense.

What I am curious about is what happens after PT5 and HM3 come out. Will they start to develop Hold'em Tracker 1 or some such combined product? A long way off I'd imagine but could be interesting.



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Thu Aug 21, 2014, 01:12 PM
(#4)
bhoylegend's Avatar
Since: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,261
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fadyen View Post
And I don't think PokerTracker users will have to pay for add-ons either as that means those that already have will be paying less then new customers for the same service, makes no sense.
The two companies are effectively a monopoly in tracking software. As you said, they don't need to worry about the other big fish, and a lot of people chose Pokertracker because of the freebies with it.

Both products are $59.99 for the small stakes version. It also doesn't make sense for the same company to have two identically priced products, one of which comes with everything combined, the other with lots of fairly expensive add-ons. Unless they plan to run sales for one into the ground it will be nearly impossible for them market both products credibly in my opinion.

Another point to look at, TN2, nobody wanted it or needed it but it was introduced because the makers (Who are part of the HEM family) wanted to make more money. They had promised 'lifetime' updates of the TN1 software and therefore couldn't charge anything more than the original license. So, they ended the lifetime of the product, and introduced an inferior bug filled product. This now attracts an inflated fee or a subscription charge. It hardly makes sense from a customer point of view but they have the mass multi-tablers and those who can only play with lots of third party software over a barrel on this because they 'need' it.

The next iterations of both HEM and PT will, IMO (Not worth a lot but I still like to express it), be subscription based. If somehow the prices for the current products do stay the same until these new iterations I would again expect a sizeable increase in price or a subscription model that will mean the consumer is hit with a long term cost. Neither one now has to worry about introducing such a model while the other doesn't.

It's not just in poker that anomalies happen, you could ask 10 Sky customers (On the same TV package) what they are paying for their channels and you would get wide and varied amounts, because people buy at different times, are given price freezes, reductions, inducements etc. to stay around.

It's just so rare that the customers get any benefit from mergers, it's always the companies, I hope I am wrong here but history suggests that monopolies are a bad thing.
 
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Thu Aug 21, 2014, 02:21 PM
(#5)
bhoylegend's Avatar
Since: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,261
2+2 thread on the subject: http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/29.../#post44365234

Almost universal contempt for the deal so far, it is NVG of course, but even still.
 
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Thu Aug 21, 2014, 03:07 PM
(#6)
ArtySmokesPS's Avatar
Since: Oct 2011
Posts: 7,353
I think it's bad for consumers in general. I just wonder if it will ultimately mean that customer support (and fixes for "broken" HUDs when sites bring out new games or change hand history formats) will be better/quicker in the future. I kind of doubt it, because there's less of an incentive to excel if you have no major competitor.

FWIW, my last 12,000 hands have been played without a HUD, primarily because HEM currently doesn't support the site/format I'm grinding. I almost switched to PT just so I had a working HUD. I don't think this merger means it will be fixed any quicker.


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Thu Aug 21, 2014, 03:13 PM
(#7)
Grade b's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 3,604
Have to Agree with the "its too early."

You would hope this means the best of both products for both products but I would be in the the developers might get more lazy without the threat of the competition taking the lions share of customer


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Sat Aug 30, 2014, 08:10 AM
(#8)
sparkes25's Avatar
Since: Feb 2013
Posts: 645
Heres an idea, what would happen if pokerstars did its own hud and tracker, after all pokerstars has all the information on every hand ever played on the site. I feel it would make the game fair if everyone was given the same hud to use. I also think the high rollers would pay a fair amount of $ to have a complete life time sample of another players hands.

Think about it, I they gave the hud away for free and it worked like a normal basic hud/tracker, would you be happy to pay to get a 10,000 hand sample of other players. If you made a good size ft would you pay $10 to get a 10,000 sample of the other 8 players. Maybe the other 8players could get a small %of the $ for there hand history being sold, and clearly some players would want to opt out and not have their stats sold.

I think it would be good for stars to do this as a lot of part time players will like getting a free hud so it could attract new players
 
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Sat Aug 30, 2014, 08:12 AM
(#9)
royalraise85's Avatar
Since: Jul 2011
Posts: 26,024
(Community Coordinator)
HUDs only work off the hand histories stored in players personal PC's

Raiser
 
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Sat Aug 30, 2014, 02:04 PM
(#10)
sparkes25's Avatar
Since: Feb 2013
Posts: 645
I agree huds will only use hands that are stored on your own pc, but you can import hands and store them on your pc, so pokerstars could sell this data for you to import and store.

I guess some players would want there own data from there complete poker life on the site, I think people would be happy to pay for that with $ or fpp's
 
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Sat Aug 30, 2014, 02:15 PM
(#11)
sparkes25's Avatar
Since: Feb 2013
Posts: 645
Here is an example of how ps could make some money, lets say I down loaded the free hud from pokerstars, and played the sunday storm for $11, and I made it down to the last 18 players. And I had 250 hands sample on the players around me, if I could pay $1 and get a hand history of a player at my table I think it would be +ev to do so at that point due to the steps in the prize money, so I may spend $10-15 getting 10-15 players histories. So if most of the people at the table do it the ps could make around $200.

Also if you were playing a $5000 buy in, which had 200 players, I feel most of them would be happy to pay $1 for hand histories on the players around them from the start of the mtt.
 
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Sat Aug 30, 2014, 02:16 PM
(#12)
sparkes25's Avatar
Since: Feb 2013
Posts: 645
When I say hand history I mean last 10,000 hands sample
 
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Sat Sep 06, 2014, 12:58 PM
(#13)
Crumblepie's Avatar
Since: Jul 2011
Posts: 204
Quote:
Originally Posted by royalraise85 View Post
HUDs only work off the hand histories stored in players personal PC's

Raiser
So, under hand history options, "keep hand histories for x number of days."

What number should we type there?

Is there a number afterwhich hands become obsolete because to old or some other reason?
 
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Sat Sep 06, 2014, 07:16 PM
(#14)
ArtySmokesPS's Avatar
Since: Oct 2011
Posts: 7,353
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crumblepie View Post
So, under hand history options, "keep hand histories for x number of days."

What number should we type there?
About 350.

HEM or PT will automatically move the hands into their database/archive, so the folder will be empty after you import the hands.
If you really want to, you can set up your HUD to ignore hands that were played X months ago, but I've never seen the point of that. Although players can obviously get better over time, if someone is a loose passive at the start of the year, they are unlikely to have turned into a nit if you next play them 10 months later, so "old" stats will still have relevance.


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Sat Sep 06, 2014, 08:27 PM
(#15)
Crumblepie's Avatar
Since: Jul 2011
Posts: 204
Quote:
Originally Posted by ArtySmokesPS View Post
About 350.

HEM or PT will automatically move the hands into their database/archive, so the folder will be empty after you import the hands.
If you really want to, you can set up your HUD to ignore hands that were played X months ago, but I've never seen the point of that. Although players can obviously get better over time, if someone is a loose passive at the start of the year, they are unlikely to have turned into a nit if you next play them 10 months later, so "old" stats will still have relevance.
Oh, I see. Thanks.
 

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