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What hands do you typically four-bet with and when is it the right time to do so?

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What hands do you typically four-bet with and when is it the right time to do so? - Sun Aug 24, 2014, 11:29 AM
(#1)
passter's Avatar
Since: Dec 2012
Posts: 195
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What types of hands are you four-betting with and when would it be appropriate to so?
 
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Sun Aug 24, 2014, 05:09 PM
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Ovalman's Avatar
Since: Feb 2011
Posts: 1,778
Monsters obviously but you need to balance the range.

I'll 4 bet if I think villain is 3 betting too much and I'll GET HIM TO FOLD. It really needs a deep analysis of villain as a 4 bet is usually an all in bet unless ultra deep stacked. I'm a STT/ SnG player and a 4 bet hand will have different values at different stages of a tourney. You really can't just have a premium 4 bet range because the regs (>1k hands) WILL pick up on this but against random unknowns it's better to play it ABC.

HTH


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Sun Aug 24, 2014, 06:12 PM
(#3)
ArtySmokesPS's Avatar
Since: Oct 2011
Posts: 7,324
It depends.

Are we talking tourneys or cashgames? What are the stack-sizes and positions?

I like 4-betting AA and KK. Sometimes I'll 4-bet A5s or K9s. It's situational.


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4-betting - Sun Aug 24, 2014, 06:23 PM
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passter's Avatar
Since: Dec 2012
Posts: 195
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Like 4 betting in tournaments. Example: Big stack (me) vs medium stack (other player). I'm in middle position and the other guy is in late position. The other guy opens and 3-bets a lot.
 
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Sun Aug 24, 2014, 06:51 PM
(#5)
Ovalman's Avatar
Since: Feb 2011
Posts: 1,778
If he 3 bets a lot then your 4 bet range must widen a lot.

In tourneys if you 4 bet think to yourself does he have fold equity and will he fold?


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Sun Aug 24, 2014, 08:48 PM
(#6)
Profess Awe's Avatar
Since: Apr 2011
Posts: 1,579
Its an interesting question and one I have asked in the past. I spent a few weeks earlier in the Summer looking at 4bet spots and left with renewed realisation that as the posts above suggest it is not "what hands" it is versus "which players".
I had a pretty good Sunday results wise, made 12 4bets, 9 of them were 4 bet shoves, all of them were because stats suggested the 3 better was wide enough and I had fold equity. Hands were AJ-AK, A9s, 66.
The other three where the 3better could have 5bet shoved (they didn't) I had KK twice (I'm calling off) and ATs (I'm folding).

So as a for instance, the 66 seems light, but this was a 4bet shove on a 6max table against a villain with 21% 3bet. So main advice is it depends on who is 3 betting.
Other advice is in MTTs you are typically 4 bet shoving more than 4betting with room to fold, so spend more time thinking about that.
Also dont worry about it too much, there are many MTTs where villains aren't 3 betting light, we don't need to spend much time thinking about what we 4 bet if villains only 3bet AQ+, TT+

Good luck
 
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Tue Aug 26, 2014, 05:31 AM
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spand42's Avatar
Since: Sep 2010
Posts: 1,496
I don't know what stakes you play but my experience in Micro and Small-stake MTTs is that relatively few people 3Bet light. Now that doesn't mean that a 4Bet bluff won't work but obviously the chances of it getting through will be much lower.

Like Profess Awe says choosing when to do anything light is largely villain and situation dependent.

Some players you can 4Bet jam stuff like TT and AQ for value, against others this would be suicide.

Some villains might be 3Betting out of line and you can 4Bet whatever as a bluff. Having an Ace blocker (e.g. A2, A3, A4) can be nice hands to bluff with as it makes it a little less likely that the villain has a strong Ax himself.
 
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4-betting - Tue Sep 16, 2014, 12:00 PM
(#8)
passter's Avatar
Since: Dec 2012
Posts: 195
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So would it be safe to say that people should have tighter 4-betting range against like a tight-passive, loose passive or tight aggressive player and a wider 4-betting range against like loose aggressive players?
 
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Tue Sep 16, 2014, 03:41 PM
(#9)
TheLangolier's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 13,487
(Head Trainer)
Here's some Live Training videos by Gareth on the topic you might find helpful:

Four The Win

4-Betting Revisited Part 1

4-Betting Revisited Part 2

Three, Four, Five Part 1

Three, Four, Five Part 2


Head Live Trainer
Check out my Videos

4 Time Bracelet Winner



 
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Live Training - Sun Sep 21, 2014, 12:03 PM
(#10)
passter's Avatar
Since: Dec 2012
Posts: 195
BronzeStar
Damn can't watch them don't have 20 VPP or 150 VPP.
 
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Sun Sep 21, 2014, 01:49 PM
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sparkes25's Avatar
Since: Feb 2013
Posts: 645
The cards you hold are one of a few things you should check before 4betting, the first things to check are

Do you have position on the 3 better, and the player that opened the betting.
Have you already given away information about your hand, eg checking on the button and the sb and bb both raise
How deep is is the effective stacks, how much will the 4-bet cost you
What will you do if the villain jams it in or calls
What will you do if another player jams or cold calls
Is it the right time to take a big risk, bubble or big pay jump
How often is the player 3-betting, have other players at your table noticed the villains high 3 betting, could they work out that your 4-betting lighter then normal.
What is you table image, would they expect you to have the goods
Should you be getting involved in the pot, eg the villain and you are both clear chip leaders and he is the only person that can knock you out, but if you avoid him for now you will get a good cash.


If some of the points above do not suit you then you may be best to carry on the hand using pot control or even folding before putting anything in the pot.
 
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Wed Sep 24, 2014, 08:26 AM
(#12)
HokyPokyToo's Avatar
Since: Jun 2010
Posts: 4,901
** thread moved to Poker Education **


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