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Pocket JJ on draw heavy board.

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Pocket JJ on draw heavy board. - Mon Aug 25, 2014, 08:41 AM
(#1)
Polkadots107's Avatar
Since: Aug 2011
Posts: 6
Hi,

I have a hand I'm very uncertain about. I'm playing 1c/2c micro with pocket JJ on a draw heavy board, and going back trying to review it, I'm not sure i played it correctly.

I'm in doubt whether to try to give my opponent the wrong odds to call a flush draw, or try to control the pot size. What would be the best option in this situation and how can i calculate it? Also it feels like the size of my bets was off.

I had about 50 hands on my opponent who was showing VPIP 18 / PFR 14.

Any opinions or food for thought is greatly appreciated!

 
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Wed Aug 27, 2014, 06:11 PM
(#2)
Tyirl's Avatar
Since: Dec 2012
Posts: 389
For me, when I'm playing a cash game, my 3bets pre-flop will be 3x the amount that the guy bet who opened the hand as a standard amount. Situationally that amount might increase. For instance sometimes I will make it larger if I'm going to be playing out of position if there is post flop play or if I think the villain is a fishy player who I think will be willing to pay off a larger amount when I think I am way ahead of his range of hands or if there was another player who flat called before action gets to me or if the guy makes it 2BBs and that annoys me at that particular moment then I'm going to raise him 7-9BBs with any two cards, etc. In tournaments it can often be excellent to use smaller 3bet sizings depending on the situation. I can't think of many examples of when I would make my 3bet less than 3x in a cash game. Maybe if the guy was a maniac opening to like 10BB a ton and he was 4betting all 3bets and I had a premium hand I could make it 25BB hoping that he would shove? I dunno. This is all just my opinion so take it with a grain of salt.

TLDR version: I think you should have made your 3bet pre-flop at least 18 cents. When you make it 15 then you are giving the villain better odds to continue by calling with a wider range of hands.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Polkadots107 View Post
I'm in doubt whether to try to give my opponent the wrong odds to call a flush draw, or try to control the pot size. What would be the best option in this situation and how can i calculate it? Also it feels like the size of my bets was off.

I don't know what the best option is with this flop. I know I don't like the flop with the hand we have. I would probably still c-bet as I would c-bet with a lot of hands that hit this flop well also, but with the hand that we actually have I'm just hoping that the villain gives up and goes away. If the villain doesn't go away, then I'm probably not putting much more money in here.

On the turn I hate folding to such a tiny bet, but we aren't beating anything so it's probably best to give up. Even if he just has Qx with no diamond we are still losing. I think if we call then he is betting larger (all-in) on the river. If we had a hand like a set of tens then we would be getting the odds to draw to a full house with his bet size so I would call with a hand like that, and check/fold on the river if the board doesn't pair.

As far as how to calculate how to give someone the wrong odds goes: Ugh, math. Someone else would need to explain those things because I'm terrible at math. I think that generally if you want to give someone bad odds to draw to just a flush (not counting if they have overcards to the board, or straight draws also, etc) then you need to make your bet more than half pot sized. I believe that a half pot bet gives generally the correct odds to call with just a flush draw on the flop if you can see both the turn and river without putting more money in. That doesn't mean that you need to make it huge. You could make it 20 cents on this flop instead of 16 cents and that would give wrong odds to a hand with just a flush draw and no overcards, but if he has a hand like A6o with the ace of diamonds then he would be getting correct odds even if you bet 20 cents because if he paired the A then he would also be winning. He wouldn't know for sure that an A would give him the best hand, you could have a set or a hand like AQ or you could already have a flush yourself.

And stuff ... I think I'm done.


T

Last edited by Tyirl; Wed Aug 27, 2014 at 10:37 PM..
 
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Thu Aug 28, 2014, 02:13 AM
(#3)
Feskprins's Avatar
Since: May 2011
Posts: 450
I'm writing this prior to reading Tyirl's post.

I'd 3bet this bigger pre for sure. Always keep in mind why you're doing something and undestand why. Here, I'd like a bigger raise for value, and to compensate for being out of position. Two other aspects to consider is that the button is likely a bad player and will call with inferior hands (and you're ahead of his range regardless), and he has a short stack. A bigger raise would reduce the stack-to-pot ratio (which is good for your one pair holding) as well as diminish his positional advantage. I'd make it at least 20c-22c, maybe more depending on villain. He calls.

Flop is a monotone Q high one and puts you in kind of a sticky spot. Not only because it's a bad flop, but because you're OOP. Before you take any action, you have to make a decision, right now, if you're willing to commit with this hand or not. If you think you're behind this particular villain, check/folding is best. If you're willing to get it in and you think you can do so profitably, check/raising is superior in my opinion. However, I don't think this is a good one to get in. The only hand you're beating at this point is two overs with no diamond.

You're a huge underdog to any diamond ace or diamond king. You're also a huge dog to any queen. You're a slight favourite against hands like 77 or 88, but that's about it. You can't steal this pot, and you're not making money in the long run getting it in here. In my opinion, it's a fold on the flop against most opponents. The one exception would be if the villain folds a lot to cbets. Then I'd take a small stab at the pot like you did and give up on the turn.



......

Last edited by Feskprins; Thu Aug 28, 2014 at 02:17 AM.. Reason: Cake is always the reason
 
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Thu Aug 28, 2014, 03:14 PM
(#4)
Polkadots107's Avatar
Since: Aug 2011
Posts: 6
Thank you both for your incredibly detailed analysis of the hand.

This is how i understand what you are writing - please correct me if I'm wrong!
What you both seem to agree upon is re-raising bigger pre flop. The villain calls, and the ugly flop comes.
Postflop is a bit more tricky. A c-bet might get my opponent off any worse hand, but seeing as he has us beat with most hands, it's not likely he will fold to my aggression, therefore check/folding might be a better option in the long run. However if i have a read that he folds to most c-bets a small bet might be +EV in the long run.

Really interesting reading, thumbs up to both of you!
 
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Thu Aug 28, 2014, 03:47 PM
(#5)
shoim's Avatar
Since: Jun 2013
Posts: 180
Hey,

My short version on this :
1. pre-flop 3b is too small (min 3b is 3x the raise - but being in the SB, BB to act after you, make a bit more, maybe 10bb 0.2 or even 0.22)
2. your donk is off, flop is a check / call (one over card on monochrome board, no draws except a backdoor straight but even that is going to be beaten by 7d2d) - so plan to fold any non Jh turn, Jd is a close call, trying to make a river fullhouse for a reasonable price.

PS : watch you opponent's stack, he is not full stacked, assume a loose passive player, these dudes call with their draws, never raise without the nuts.
 
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Thu Aug 28, 2014, 04:50 PM
(#6)
ArtySmokesPS's Avatar
Since: Oct 2011
Posts: 7,316
Check-fold the flop. You're never way ahead if you bet (even baby flush draws have a lot of equity), and you could be way behind, with only one clean out if villain has a queen or a set. You'll hate nearly all turn and river cards (even a blank deuce doesn't help you, as you'll still be unsure if you're ahead/behind), so just give up now. Sometimes the flop comes so bad for your hand that you're better off cutting your losses rather than firing more money into the abyss.


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